File deterioration ???

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Is there such a thing as deterioration in digital from exporting files ???

For example:

If you export and import several times (say between the mix and mastering phase) does the file suffer loss? (Assuming you dont change rates, staying at 96k 24 to 96k 24.)

I realize the sound changes when you make Mp3's etc. But does going through the "In the box guts" a few times degrade or change the sound any?
 
Depends. If you use a lossy format like MP3 or WMA to export/import, then yes. But if you use WAV files then it should be fine
 
Yup. MP3 is lossy compression and conversion to MP3 should be reserved to make a distribution copy from your final mastered version. The quality goes down every time you open then re-save an MP3...and, with concatenation, you hit a quality cliff-edge pretty fast.

However, if you stick to WAVE files and lead the sample rate and bit depth alone, you should be able to copy it as many times as you like with no changes.
 
So what's the scoop with Apple's "lossless compression" format (ALAC) and other "lossless" formats that *compress* the digital audio?

To me it's an oxymoron --"lossless compression". If you compress something, it's NOT the same, though I know they interpret it differently. These types of formats use linear prediction to "look ahead" and "fill in the blanks"...so basically they throw out some of the data to compress, but then they estimate via prediction what it is, that way they put it back on playback.

It's a form of modeling, and while it may not have a "lossy" sound quality to it...it ain't the same as an original uncompressed file...so IMO, something is "lost". :D
 
I can't speak for the Apple system but you CAN have lossless compression. It depends on the algorithm used. However, truly lossless compression generally can't make files as small as lossy compression.

For example, consider a 16 bit audio file--a string of 16 0s and 1s. By the law of averages, a certain number of samples will begin with a long string of 0s which contribute nothing to the sample. If you can use variable length coding and discard any initial 0s, you can compress the file size but not lose any significant information.

Lossless coding can go farther than that. If you have a series of identical samples, there are ways to send the information once with an electronic "repeat for X samples" command. Again, this can reduce file sizes without making any un-reversible changes to the sounds. For example, if you had a 1000Hz tone at a specific level, you could (in theory) send a single sample and reproduce a hour of that tone from the one sample.

Obviously, real music doesn't work this way and the amount of compression available with lossless techniques can be quite variable depending on the audio content--but things like FLAC can genuinely be lossless.

However, for really significant compression, things like MP3 start playing lots of psychoacoustic tricks--and throwing away lots of audio data. It also uses all the "look ahead" and predictive coding tricks you mention--basically it guesses what the music should be and, like any guess, can get it wrong! This means that the effect of lossy compression is cumulative and it starts to bite seriously after a few passes. Frankly, I only use MP3 when I need to email a file or something at the end of the recording and mixing process. It certainly has no place in the production process.
 
Yup, you are right...I was just being facetious about the whole "lossless compression" thing.

I mean...even throwing away "nothing", and then putting it back....is still something,. ;) :D
 
Yeah. Now that you can get a terabyte of storage for $60 as I saw in a flyer today, why worry about compressing anyhow.

Now, if I could just get a decently fast internet connection, I could email WAVE files too!
 
Curtis...you seem to be bouncing around from thread to thread making meaningless one-line posts.
If you are just trying to run up your post count to be able to drop links and whatnot....you'll get flack from a lot of folks.


Just giving you a heads up, 'cuz I see some folks already calling for you to get banned on the Analog forum.
 
It's Merv he got banned and is coming back again and again in a multi alais assult. SB style all up in my grill! :D
 
I don't know about digital deterioration if the format & rates remain the same. I suppose if you converted to analogue & then back to digital it would have some effect.
If the format is unstable, the storeage hardware/software prone to corruption or you've waved a magnet over it there's be some damage.
Then again I've saved cakewalk Pro Audio 9.3 bundles to CD & DVD that were in prime condition when stored only to find them damage/corrupted/unreadable a year or so later.
I held off from using FLAC for ages because I couldn't get my head around reducing something by 50% "lossless". I still can't BUT flac is DEFINITELY better than any "lossy" format. I started using FLAC when uploading for distribution & seek out FLAC for downloading. The sound of an audio CD made from FLAC files is def. better than from MP3 - even 320s. & that's from someone deaf.
 
If the format is an uncompressed one (i.e. generally .WAV) then you can open and close all you want without problems, barring changing the bit depth or sample rate.

However, the vast majority of DAWs cannot work on compressed files in that format. Most convert to some version of .WAV file for processing, then, if you save as MP3 (or whatever) again, that's another compression process and the artefacts and errors multiply.

As for FLAC, think of it as an audio version of a .ZIP file--it makes the file size smaller but does nothing irreversible to the audio...your sounds can be reproduced the same as if they remained uncompressed. The only downside to using it is the extra processing required to open and save files which can slow things down a bit.

I you MUST work on an MP3 file, I know there are some bits of software out there than can perform simple DAW functions (editing, level changes, etc.) working in the compressed format. However, I've never tried any of them and can't vouch for the quality. As far as I'm concerned, MP3 is the work of the devil!
 
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