Fake orchestra

  • Thread starter Thread starter bozmillar
  • Start date Start date
bozmillar

bozmillar

New member
I just got a control surface for christmas hoping to be able to make more real sounding fake orchestra stuffs. I just ran a little test, and I think it sounds ok, but my ears get numb to this stuff pretty quick, and my wife thinks sampled strings are blaspheme, so I'm looking for a second opinion here.

Try not to mind the generic arrangement. I just came up with it as I recorded it today. I plan on improving the arrangement later, but I'm most interesting in knowing how it sounds. How about a scale from 1-10 (10 being indecipherable from a real orchestra and 1 sounding like an atari game). Explanations on why you think it might sound that way would be helpful too. Tips are good too from any of you sampled orchestra people out there.

 
If i didn't know it was sampled, I don't think there are enough clues to point to the fact that they are. I didn't see a problem with the sound. Would you tell me what sampler you used? It almost sounded like some scoring from "The Dark Knight".
 
The 1st rhythmic group after the timpani break does sound mechanical - processed like a deliberately synth sound but in a good way - this isn't so obvious when the massed strings get involved.
The timpani sounds OK - but I'm not sure you could get away with playing the real things that fast without get a pretty muddy sound.
The strings sound like bunches of strings. Usually what David K does is record real strings over & over to develop that stacked sound you're after. Perhaps you should try the same by building a stack of individual synth or midi violins each one with a slight tonal & minuscule timing diff to the rest.
Interesting experiment & the arrangement isn't too bad at all.
 
I used GPO for this. It probably does sound like a song on dark knight. I think almost every action film ever made has a song that sounds a lot like this one. I think in the end, I may end up putting guitars/drums to this and try to make a metal song out of it. I've never tried writing guitars around an orchestra, but I think it's worth a shot.
 
rayc said:
The 1st rhythmic group after the timpani break does sound mechanical - processed like a deliberately synth sound but in a good way - this isn't so obvious when the massed strings get involved.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was actually having a really hard time with that. For some reason, the softer notes were not being played when I had some dynamics in the hits. I'll spend some more time on that part and try to get it smoothed out more.

rayc said:
The timpani sounds OK - but I'm not sure you could get away with playing the real things that fast without get a pretty muddy sound.
Click to expand...

I threw that in there at the end. I'll go back and work on those more too.

rayc said:
The strings sound like bunches of strings. Usually what David K does is record real strings over & over to develop that stacked sound you're after. Perhaps you should try the same by building a stack of individual synth or midi violins each one with a slight tonal & minuscule timing diff to the rest.
Click to expand...

That was actually my thought on what to do next. I'll try that and see how much it helps.
 
bozmillar said:
That was actually my thought on what to do next. I'll try that and see how much it helps.
Click to expand...

GPO (which I also use) has solo strings and section strings. I use both and overdub them.

The sound is pretty cool. I wouldnt confuse it for a real orchestra, but it's not really that important in soundtracks. I don't like the Timpani in GPO, too hard of a mallet. I also don't like the GPO reverb. I often track things dry and add my own. For timpani I use one of my romplers.

I like the solo GPO strings much better than the section. Dry stacking some. They dont have fast attacks so they might not work on this piece, but in general they have a better sound quality.

You did an excellent job with it.:cool:
 
ok, I layered some of the solo strings on top of the string sections samples, and added a little randomization to the timing and velocity, and this is what I got. Is it better? worse? same, just different?

I think I also upped the reverb a bit. I'm using a reverb plugin, but I'll try a convolution reverb to see if I like that better. It will probably sound more natural at least.

 
I think the second one is noticeably different, and on the better side--though I like both of them. Very nice work!
 
I don't mean a threadjack here, but 2 things:

1. I think it sounds great. My ear might be untrained, but I can't tell a difference from a real orchestra.

2. How does this VSTi stack up against IK's Philharmonik? I've been looking into buying an orchestra VSTi, and need help making a decision.
 
solaris1982 said:
I don't mean a threadjack here, but 2 things:

1. I think it sounds great. My ear might be untrained, but I can't tell a difference from a real orchestra.

2. How does this VSTi stack up against IK's Philharmonik? I've been looking into buying an orchestra VSTi, and need help making a decision.
Click to expand...

1) Thanks. I guess most ears are untrained, so I guess a lot of people won't be able to tell the difference (on the same note, a lot of people can't tell the difference between a casio and an orchestra).

2) I've heard some good Philharmonik sample songs. I've never used it before, but based on the songs I've heard from both, I tend to think Philharmonik might be easier to get to sound good. When I first installed GPO, I thought it sounded really bad. I'm still getting used to the feel of it, and I think I'm finally getting to the point where I like the sound.

Philharmonik is a lot bigger (7GB) than GPO, which could mean it sounds better. I'd listen to user samples, not pro samples, and use whichever you think sounds best.
 
Too damn short is what I say.;)
Sounds are great for VSTi, I dabble with Edirol orchestral, with the keyboard of my laptop, and can't get nearly that precise. Or sounds that transparent or clear.
 
The timing in the second one feels very over-humanized.

If you're changing the timing of the section strings, it sounds like the whole section is hitting late or early. In real life the chances of every bow in a section hitting exactly at the same time, whether late, early or on time are tiny.

You don't want the whole section to sound late, you want some of the players in the section to sound early, and some of the players in the section to sound late, both in very tiny amounts.

Right now it sounds (to me) like 20 violins all hitting late or early (to a pretty overdone degree) when ideally it should sound like 20 violins almost exactly on time, with maybe 5 very slightly late, and maybe 5 very slightly early, and the other 10 miniscule amounts ahead or behind the beat to varying degrees.

The problem comes in the fact that you can't break the section strings in GPO down into individual violins (or violas, or whatever), and change the timing of each one. The only way to acheive that effect would be to build the whole section out of the individual solo violins. Unfortunately there just aren't enough different solo violins in GPO to build more than maybe one section convincingly. Your best bet is to maybe keep the section strings almost perfectly in time (almost) and then vary the timing of the solo overlays a bit more. Other than that there's not much you can do with a software like GPO (which I still love for classical music and regular scoring type stuff, although I've never been able to get it to sound like "gigantic Hans Zimmer action movie brass".

I also highly highly recommend a good convolution 'verb. It helps GPO immensely, and probably isn't gonna be that much more cpu sucking than Ambiance, which is way too much of a CPU hog for what it does.

GPO rules though, for it's price there's nothing as comprehensive and composer friendly out there.
 
Dumb question of the thread: What is GPO? (If this were a word game, I'd say "BLANK" Philharmonic Orchestra. Would I be close?)
 
WhiteStrat said:
Dumb question of the thread: What is GPO? (If this were a word game, I'd say "BLANK" Philharmonic Orchestra. Would I be close?)
Click to expand...

Nope. Good try though. :)

Garritan Personal Orchestra, it's a VSTI orchestral sample library.

By the way, bozmillar I forgot to mention, I have no idea what you did to process your GPO but it sounds amazing, much different than mine in a very good way.

Is there any chance you could tell me what processors and such you used, and which patches you used?
 
As a matter of interest, what do people here rate higher: GPO or VSL? Ive heard both, but only used VSL, and I prefer it.
 
Keep playing with it - you'll get the knack soon enough & milk it for what it can do.
Now, go back to an unfinished rock tune & Symph it up to see how the stuff blends.
 
Waffleness said:
As a matter of interest, what do people here rate higher: GPO or VSL? Ive heard both, but only used VSL, and I prefer it.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about the low end VSL stuff, but the high end stuff is amazing (and expensive and big). I'm not sure how much the entry level package is and what it includes, but VSL is pretty much the standard, and for good reason. I've also heard good stuff about east-west.
 
Steve-0 said:
The timing in the second one feels very over-humanized.
Click to expand...

Right. The attacks on GPO solo strings are slow. They are meant for lyrical passages. The key IMO is the mix, burying the solo stuff under the section to fill it out but not affect the articulation. It's not as crisp as the first.


I like the second too. Again, it sounds like a film score, I wouldnt confuse it with a symphony but it's not supposed to be one, it's supposed to be a film score and that's what it sounds like.:D

For the record, the best GPO patches:

English Horn
Oboe D'Amore
Flute
Bassoon
Tubular Bells and some percussion
Pipe Organs
Harpsichord

The section strings are rather ordinary and sound like Yamaha/Korg/Roland romplers. The solo strings are better, if used sparingly. The winds are the real forte of GPO, if you used them in solo mode, which makes them monophonic.
 
So last night I messed with it a bit more. I changed the solo strings from violin player 1 to violin solo ks. the ks version has a fast attack version, so I'm messing with that to see if I can get some better results. Unfortunately I didn't have time to export it before leaving for work this morning.

I will go back and dehumanize a little. There are a couple of spots that I am noticing a really late violin or two.

DavidK, I will have to ponder your symphony vs film score comment. While you are absolutely right that I'm going for a film score sound on this song, I guess I never really thought that there was a difference, other than style. Then again, I'm sort of a hack musicer, I just like to push buttons until they sound right. I definitely have no classical training other than my kids watching Baby Einstein.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top