fader position

Nola

Nola

Well-known member
can you pros tell me your channel fader position in final mixes? i have guitars at like -7db, and it makes me wonder why i didn't just record them with less signal (recorded them at -18db as recommended). isn't it true that it's easier to fine tune a mix the closer it is to unity on the fader? so if that's true, then should i just record it with less signal instead of bringing the fader down such a large amount?

then, in mastering that signal all gets brought back up, which seems stupid and like it would introduce noise or artifacts. am i doing something wrong? should the channel fader be near or close to 0 on everything?
 
I record at -18 or so and leave the gain knob alone in Sonar. I adjust the fader according to the song.
It starts with the drums mostly so it sort of depends on that.
My current song = lead fader at -8.8
Also if you add plugins that affect volume that will affect the fader.
I leave gain alone as when I turn it down it the level is not enough for some of my plugins to respond.

Pickup/Amp Noise on my guitar track is (when audible and between notes) automated out.
My pretend mastering is a concrete limiter and it does introduce it's own "flavor" of noise imho.
 
Nola said:
isn't it true that it's easier to fine tune a mix the closer it is to unity on the fader?
Click to expand...

On a real mixer, yes, because at lower settings the fader gets real sensitive to small movements. When I'm mixing in Sony Vegas it's a simple matter of Control-Scroll to make the fader move in .1dB increments regardless of its position.

I do fiddle with gain to optimize how a track hits the inserts or whatever. But sometimes I leave it alone, and if the fader ends up at -20 so be it.
 
The reason to record the average level of the signal at around -18dbfs is to put the signal in the sweet spot of the mic preamp and the rest of the analog chain. Recording level and mix level have nothing to do with each other. Recording level is about getting the signal recorded in the best way possible.

-7db really isn't too far away from unity, but besides that, where the faders end up depends on the rest of the mix. There is no magic fader position for guitars, or anything else.

The idea for setting levels so that the faders are all around unity gain is a live thing. The reason for it is that the faders on an analog console are more precise around the unity point. This means that a 1/4 inch fader movement around unity is 1-2db where that same 1/4 inch movement at -15db could be 5-6db. It also cuts down on bleed, which is irrelevant in a studio-type situation.

What i tend to do with guitars is use the faders to balance them individually against each other, then send all the guitars to a bus and use the bus to adjust the guitars in the mix. I do the same thing with vocals, although sometimes I have a separate bus for background vocals.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
On a real mixer, yes, because at lower settings the fader gets real sensitive to small movements. When I'm mixing in Sony Vegas it's a simple matter of Control-Scroll to make the fader move in .1dB increments regardless of its position.

I do fiddle with gain to optimize how a track hits the inserts or whatever. But sometimes I leave it alone, and if the fader ends up at -20 so be it.
Click to expand...

okay cool thanks boulder.

so say my drums are a -2, bass a -4, guitar at -7...do these seem reasonable if everything was recorded around -18db on the channels?

also, what if i bumped the drum to 0, bass to -2, and guitar to -5. wouldn't it all be a relative move up and therefore the mix louder without having to limit during mastering? would that be wise to do?
 
Limiting during mastering is to make the dynamic range smaller. If you just want to get the peak level up to 0dbfs, you can just normalize.

Worrying about the final level during the mix is pointless. Recording is different from mixing, is different from mastering.

Recording levels are to get the best signal recorded.

Mixing levels are to get the individual instrument levels to work within the context of the song.

Mastering levels are to get the album to work as a whole and to bring the volumes up to commercial levels.

Worrying about one of those things while you are in the middle of another process is pointless.
 
Nola said:
then, in mastering that signal all gets brought back up, which seems stupid and like it would introduce noise or artifacts.
Click to expand...
This is a real concern in analog and in fixed-point digital where the ceiling and the floor are relatively close together. In modern floating-point environments, you'd have to get kind of crazy about it to hear any new noise. You probably don't want to attenuate, bounce to fixed-point file, and then gain that back up, but mostly it just doesn't matter. Put the fader where it sounds good. Add a trim/gain plug if you need to. Do what you gotta do and don't worry about it.
 
thanks guys, i won't worry about the faders then. what about this question? would selecting all the channels and moving them up 2db sound the same as turning my monitors down 2db? if so, it's probably better to do that if i have the headroom, right? seems like it would need less limiting later or am i off with that thinking?

Nola said:
so say my drums are a -2, bass a -4, guitar at -7...do these seem reasonable if everything was recorded around -18db on the channels?

also, what if i bumped the drum to 0, bass to -2, and guitar to -5. wouldn't it all be a relative move up and therefore the mix louder without having to limit during mastering? would that be wise to do?
Click to expand...
 
Your monitor volume has nothing to do with the mix.

Limiting only makes a difference if you are actually limiting. It sounds like you are just using the limiter to get the peak up to zero. Unless you actually get into the reduction, it isn't going to sound different.
 
i don't think i phrased the question right.

say my mix's fader positions are:

drum: -2db
bass guitar: -4db
guitar: -7db

and my headphone monitor is at 12 o'clock.

now say i bump them all 2db, so

drum: 0db
bass: -2db
guitar: -5db

and now the headphone monitors can be turned down to 9 o'clock, and the entire mix is louder. is there any issue (or benefit) in doing that -- if you move them all up in unison to gain volume?
 
Usually not a problem or benefit either way, except that when you've got a lot of tracks bussing off places and especially if you've got some post-fader sends involved, it starts to mess things up fast. Turning up the master fader works much better.
 
As long as there isn't any processing after the faders, and the master doesn't clip, it's the same.

But, as was said, turning up the master fader will make sure nothing but volume of the mix changes

But again, using up all the headroom while you are mixing is a waste of time. Mixing and mastering are two different processes with two different purposes. Trying to do both at the same time is one of the better ways to screw things up.
 
Nola said:
can you pros tell me your channel fader position in final mixes? i have guitars at like -7db, and it makes me wonder why i didn't just record them with less signal (recorded them at -18db as recommended). isn't it true that it's easier to fine tune a mix the closer it is to unity on the fader? so if that's true, then should i just record it with less signal instead of bringing the fader down such a large amount?

then, in mastering that signal all gets brought back up, which seems stupid and like it would introduce noise or artifacts. am i doing something wrong? should the channel fader be near or close to 0 on everything?
Click to expand...

Stop mixing with your eyes and start using your ears! Assuming proper gain staging, as long as nothing is clipping, who cares where the position of the faders end up during the mix. IF it sounds good it is! In fact I would contend that fader position in most pro mixes are not static and actually change (i.e., volume automation) throughout the song. Mixing & mastering are two separate processes so I would also not recommend eating up too much head room during a mix process since that basically limits (no pun intended) the options during mastering.
 
I always have tracks that are in the -20 to -30 range, usually guitars. I prefer to add volume to them via the amp sim's preamp and output or through a vst's output gain. A track I "finished" last night has the bass at -23.2. Most of the volume is coming from the amp sim. Also, the level of the fader is dependent on finding the proper amount of compression for the track. If I find a good threshold/ratio combo, I'd rather add output gain to the bass than move that fader because that offsets everything i've worked to achieve with the compressor...i'd have too much compression then. make sense?
 
andrushkiwt said:
...i'd have too much compression then. make sense?
Click to expand...
No it doesn't. The compressor doesn't know or care where you've got your fader set. All that matters is the level at its input (well, its detector input, which is the same unless you're side-chaining). Whatever knob you use to change the level of the source is still changing the level of the source and the way the compressor will react to it.
 
ashcat_lt said:
No it doesn't. The compressor doesn't know or care where you've got your fader set. All that matters is the level at its input (well, its detector input, which is the same unless you're side-chaining). Whatever knob you use to change the level of the source is still changing the level of the source and the way the compressor will react to it.
Click to expand...

it doesn't? it sure does when there is a set threshold.
 
WTF are you talking about? Where is this compressor and what is it doing? Doesn't actually matter, though. The fader position itself has nothing to do with the compressor except in how it amplifies or attenuates the signal going through it.
 
ashcat_lt said:
WTF are you talking about? Where is this compressor and what is it doing? Doesn't actually matter, though. The fader position itself has nothing to do with the compressor except in how it amplifies or attenuates the signal going through it.
Click to expand...

1. settle down
2. you're supposed to be more experienced than i am
3. a threshold indicates when the compressor takes effect. so moving the fader up will pump more gain into the compressor, causing it to apply more compression.
4. why do i have to explain this to you? (see #2)
 
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