F**k the snare mic.

[donkeystyle]

gated snare

it's rare that i don't gate snare.........i've never had the problems you describe.....i do allow a little bit of bleed to come through so you can hear the resonance though.........

one of the only times i wont use a gate is when the drummer has too much dynamics which makes it impossible (for me) to gate it, becase the gate cuts out some of the hits...........thats only happend once or twice though....actually maybe like 3 or 4 times.......

and i don't understand your whole attack theory........the gate won't cut off the the initial attack.......why? because it's the hit of the drum stick, it's louder than the resonance.....

 

[theletterq]

I mic the snare and toms individually quite simply because I like to have options later on. I have the inputs and tracks so why not? I may end up using the close mics or I may not. When the mix begins to come together, it decides.

 

[pipelineaudio]

"Deciding whether or not you might use a particular drum track or not, later on, seems like you are leaving a lot of questions unanswered....ones that may not easily be answered later on."

that is EXACTLY the point.
Are you psychic?
Can you be 100% sure at the beginning of a MULTI track session that there wont be an instrument or voice that doesnt sit well with your original drum sound?
I like to be flexible. There is no harm in using unused channels and tracks for more sources, none whatsoever.

I would put my two overhead mics against nearly anyones multi-miced setup, but thats not the point. There are tons of reasons you might want those in isolation later

Someone talked about looking at the whole thing, as its a DRUM set, not a SNAREset or whatever. Im not so sure thats true anymore. In rock, pop, blues, most jazz, and nearly all other styles today, each drum is expected to be in a radically different accoustic space than the other drums, so I just dont see this big picture anymore. Like I said, my Overheads DO hold the big picture, for those (FEW) who want it .

It is the "cool " thing to say that you do it al natural, use bleed, HATE gates, dont trigger, dont close mic, etc...
all the "cool" guys say it. The same "cool guys" who liked michael jackson one day than hated him the next. The same "cool guys" who laughed at punks for wearing boots, then wore them themselves in the 90's. The same cool guys who LOVED bon jovi, and poison in the 80's then when it was " the cool thing" in the 90's called them silly names. Keep following those cool guys
, but...

tell me this, out of ALL the dudes who claim not to use gates, triggers, etc, name me ONE song on the radio, that was recorded by those " cool guys" that DOESNT have triggers, gates and close mics?

pretty much

 

[M.Brane]

all the "cool" guys say it. The same "cool guys" who liked michael jackson one day than hated him the next. The same "cool guys" who laughed at punks for wearing boots, then wore them themselves in the 90's. The same cool guys who LOVED bon jovi, and poison in the 80's then when it was " the cool thing" in the 90's called them silly names.

Well I guess I'm not cool then because I've never liked any of those guys, and I've always worn boots.



Naturally if you have an open track available you should mic that snare unless your absolutely sure you won't need to change anything come mix time. To me that's what mixing is all about- removing the stuff that gets in the way of the song. Peeling away the layers so to speak. It's much easier to mute something you have than to try to add something you don't.

 

[mixmkr]

"Deciding whether or not you might use a particular drum track or not, later on, seems like you are leaving a lot of questions unanswered....ones that may not easily be answered later on."

that is EXACTLY the point.
Are you psychic?
Can you be 100% sure at the beginning of a MULTI track session that there wont be an instrument or voice that doesnt sit well with your original drum sound?
I like to be flexible. There is no harm in using unused channels and tracks for more sources, none whatsoever.

I would put my two overhead mics against nearly anyones multi-miced setup, but thats not the point. There are tons of reasons you might want those in isolation later

Someone talked about looking at the whole thing, as its a DRUM set, not a SNAREset or whatever. Im not so sure thats true anymore. In rock, pop, blues, most jazz, and nearly all other styles today, each drum is expected to be in a radically different accoustic space than the other drums, so I just dont see this big picture anymore. Like I said, my Overheads DO hold the big picture, for those (FEW) who want it .

It is the "cool " thing to say that you do it al natural, use bleed, HATE gates, dont trigger, dont close mic, etc...
all the "cool" guys say it. The same "cool guys" who liked michael jackson one day than hated him the next. The same "cool guys" who laughed at punks for wearing boots, then wore them themselves in the 90's. The same cool guys who LOVED bon jovi, and poison in the 80's then when it was " the cool thing" in the 90's called them silly names. Keep following those cool guys
, but...

tell me this, out of ALL the dudes who claim not to use gates, triggers, etc, name me ONE song on the radio, that was recorded by those " cool guys" that DOESNT have triggers, gates and close mics?

pretty much

pipeline...I think you missed the intentions of my post. But, if you wanna come off sounding like a prick in response to my post, you did. BTW, if you want to start cutting heads with recorded drum sounds, I'd watch your step around here. Also, about being "cool". ... what is with that? Seems you misunderstand the evolving art of recording and mixing. Being "cool" has nothing to do with it.

 

[pipelineaudio]

"BTW, if you want to start cutting heads with recorded drum sounds, I'd watch your step around here."

what the hell is that supposed to mean?

"Seems you misunderstand the evolving art of recording and mixing."

really? As in what way? Like I asked name me a "modern" recording, that anyone has heard of that isnt using close micing, triggering or gating. A lot of artists and engineers claim that they didnt ( cuz its the cool thing to say) but they DID. I've been on a lot of sessions where later on I'll read in a magazine about how they " recorded with no overdubs, no phones, etc..." and yet I SAW them do all the things they claimed they didnt.

Dont kid yourself, modern recordings are produced WAY WAY WAY more than any 80's recordings, the minimalist stuff is a myth.

Anytime you hear a different reverb on the snare than the rest of the kit, that is either close micing, or triggering. Unless Im not understanding the laws of physics

The reason I get so animated about this, is because so many people believe this bullshit. I get bands in everyday who read that their favorite artist used ONE room mic and the band all played around it, because of just this crap.

 

[chessrock]

What happends when you need to Eq your snare...cut offending content? boost to bring a sizzle? make it fatter? fuller?

I eq it in the overhead mix. Not too difficult really. If I need more snare beef, I'll apply a healthy boost at 200 hz. If I want more crack, I'll crank up 2.5 khz. If that gives me raunchy-sounding cymbal, then I'll multiband it.

What happends when you want to optimize the snare sound? add effects that should effect only the snare? (like running two different reverbs on the snare?

I don't know why I'd want two different verbs on the snare, but I generally work with the eq of the verb or sometimes delay by jacking up 200hz on the verb or cutting above and below that freq.

What if you do want a gate on the toms but NOT the snare?

I've never really encountered that situation. To me, gating toms and/or snare is a little too 80's if you ask me, and makes them sound electronic. If someone wanted that sound, though, I suppose I'd adjust to the situation and mic everything up individually and use gates.

What if your outlook on drums is that the snare and kick hold the song together and the OH's should only be an addition to the overall sound?.

That's pretty much the way I approach it. I always mic the kick, and the overheads pick up such a predominant amount of snare on their own, that everything else sounds ancillary anyway. What I wind up with is exactly what you describe. A lot depends on positioning, though. I always put 'em on either side of the drummer's ears, pointed towards the snare, and I usually put tape under the cymbals to minimize their ring.

What if the OH's need a different type of compression?

I multiband whatever frequencies need it. 4K on up for cymbals, 200 hz for snare, and wherever the toms might be.

What happends if the snare sound sucks done by somebody else or there is no other snare in sight and you need to trigger a better sounding snare ?

I'll tell 'em the snare sound sucks and recommend they re-track it.

And there is more......Lets not forget impressing the client.......

I always stick a lot of mics around the kit. Whether or not I actually plug them in and use them is a different story.

 

[Shailat]

Although you can eq and multiband the OH+snare, You still wont get surgical or even less then perfect control over the snare and OH's on seperate tracks. If you have a buzzing snare then your stuck with it. If you Eq both the snare and OH's together then you'll effect the part you dont want even if you multiband.

Gates on a tom or snare don't always have to mean an 80's sound. You must mean also the dreaded Phil collins Gated reverb.
But if in a situation were for example your toms are full of Hi hat and other stuff and your looking to get more controll then a gate will do the trick. I'm not talking about a stiff non bleed machine type sound but to eliminate annoying bleed. Remember that on most gates you have a "Range" - "hold" "Delay"option were you can make the gate shutdown but still leave the bleed in, so when it shuts down it still allows the sound to leak but lower in level or slower in decay to make it sound more natural.
Sometimes you get a recording somebody else did and the snare is unworkable or....you did the recording but in the mix you cant get it to sit properly and to rerecord is not an option. In those cases a track with a snare on it is necessery to trigger.

In any case......Drum recording has many "Schools of thought " and using a close versus 3 mic configuration boils down to style of the song-drummer-engineer. For a real punchy rock type of recording then a 3 mic configuration, really in my opinion needs the help of the room. And a crappy sounding room should also be a consideration if to close mic or not.

 

[wjgypsy]

but what happens when you need a real snappy, ringy snare but you don't want the same kind of sound for your cymbals and toms? sure, this 3 mic thing works well for jazz, demo and soft music but what happens if you ever have to record rock?

it's 4 for me. (mics that is) snare,2 overheads and a kick. i have been thinking about buying some more 57s for my toms, but i don't really know if they are needed.


but hey...........whatever works for you good buddy..........


zeke

 

[sjoko2]

Couple of points, for what its worth, more of a realistic summary.

The "ideal"(if there is such a thing, 'coz in the end its all about taste?), in drum recording is to use the least possible number of microphones with which to arrive at a full sound spectrum.

As THE most prevalent problems with recording drums are phasing problems (well, the second problem really, the first one is called a drummer) ...... the lesser the number of mics, the lesser the potential problem.

The least number of mics you can use to create a somewhat accurate stereo image is three, 2 overheads and one kick.


HOWEVER - getting a good sound from 2 OH's and a kick depends completely on:
- The quality of Microphones.
- The quality of preamps
- The acoustics of the recording space
- The actual sound of the kit (believe it or not).

The sound resulting from a good sounding kit, recorded in a good acoustic space, with premium mics and pre's is VERY BIG and ambiant, certainly not something you'd want on all kinds of recording / music. Forget about a "tigh" or "punchy" sound.

Also - what you record is what you get, forget about pulling that snare / tom/ hat up or down once your tracking is done. In other words, you will loose your flexibility.

Your overheads and kick SHOULD ALWAYS BE YOUR PRIMARY MICROPHONES in recording a set. Get them to sound right, and you are more than halfway there. See everything else as an addition you might, or might not, need.

If you do use more microphones, most of you use DAW's, so you have no excuse for phasing problems, as you can edit tracks. So, if you insist in fucking up your mic placements, at least you can fix it. But for christ sake........ LEARN from looking at your waves and try and get it right at the source!

So, if you insist on just using 3 mics, fine, but if you have one spare, you'd be nuts not to use it.

Over here we normally mic everthing
2 x kick, 2 x snare, hat, toms, cymbals, 2 x overheads, 2 x room.
BUT - inevitably over 60% of the sound will be one kick and 2 overheads.

Perhaps a pretty decent example of a more or less typical sound for a three mic drum recording would be the song step at http://uru.iuma.com. Over 95% of the track is two overheads, placed through the M-S encoders of a Precission 8 preamp (for stereo imaging purposes) and a kick mic in front of an extremely well tuned drum. The "add-on's" are a couple of dB High Hat attack. The hat is a typical example of why you need more mics, its a tight, fast pattern, which would have gotten lost with just three mics, but all it needed was a couple of dB of the top end of the hat to make it shine through. And in the "middle bit", on the tom rolls, the room mics took over, again through the M-S encoder for good stereo image.
Other mics were placed as normal, but not used.

 

[Stefan Elmblad]

My point is that I'm already picking up plenty of snare, even without the snare mic. Add to it the fact that the snare mic picks up a lot of other things I don't need it to, and don't even want it to.

The typical snare mic, take the sm57 for example, is not very well suited for more delicate tasks like micing hi-hat. Particularly when it's facing the opposite direction from it.

Think about it. Hypothetical scenario: Imagine you were to mic only a hi-hat. I don't know why you'd be doing it, but let's just say you were making a "hi-hat" compilation/greatest hits album. Would you use the following technique? :

* small-diaphragm condenser about 3-5 feet directly overhead

* sm-57 pointing away from it, in the opposite direction towards the floor. And blend to taste.

I don't think so. At least I would hope not. Yet, that's exactly what we wind up doing (in a sense) when we mic the snare, because you can't mic the snare without a ton of hihat bleed.

That's why I think Omnis are so underrated in drum miking.
yes, you get tons of bleed, but you always get bleed, and with omnis you got them in phase and sounding good.
If using ECM8000, buying 5-6 of them ain't even hard on your wallet.

 

[sjoko2]

That's why I think Omnis are so underrated in drum miking.
yes, you get tons of bleed, but you always get bleed, and with omnis you got them in phase and sounding good.
If using ECM8000, buying 5-6 of them ain't even hard on your wallet.

..and if you've tried that you would have heard the most horrendous sound.......

 

[chessrock]

It's not a bad idea, really (miking a snare with an omni). But that would bring us full circle to issue of separation. Any boosts or effects you're applying to the snare will ultimately be applied to the hi-hat as well -- even moreso.

I've read the mixerman diaries, and I don't care if you are Fingaz or a Fingaz equivalent. There's only so much you can do to the drums. Ultimately, that particular instrument / collection of instruments needs to have fresh and well-tuned heads, good, crisp cymbals, and a performer with solid technique in order to sound good.

IMHO, using a lot of mics is just another way for the engineer to try and gain more control at mixdown. I can't tell you how many times I've been grateful for taking more control before the tracking phase. Spening less energy placing drum mics, and more time listening to the kit . . . spotting and dealing with stray rattles and rings . . . taping what needs to be taped . . . tuning . . . and even harping on the drummer about his technique if need be.

 

[sjoko2]

It's not a bad idea, really (miking a snare with an omni).

Just think and apply some logic............... use an omni on the snare. Lets say we keep it very simple, and have this omni, with 2 overheads and one kick mic.
The snare sound hits the mic at x time.
The Kick at x plus a
The Hat at x plus b
The Toms at etc etc.
Now all this arrives at the Overheads
and the result? MAJOR phasing problems which cannot be edited, time alligned, whatever you might call it.

If a mic is used in an onmi pattern, use it as an overhead (providing the ambiance of the room is superb), or, a common use, as a single room mic.

 

[pipelineaudio]

"Spening less energy placing drum mics, and more time listening to the kit . . . spotting and dealing with stray rattles and rings . . . taping what needs to be taped . . . tuning . . . and even harping on the drummer about his technique if need be.
"

you gotta do the exact same thing if you are using a bunch of mics. In fact if the mics are CLOSER you gotta pay even more attention to this stuff

 

[Son of Mixerman]

My first job (while an intern) in the studio was as a drum tech, I set up all the drum mics for the engineer. I can say that I do have plenty of experience and Sjoko mentioned it, its all about taste for alot of the situations. I used to always make sure I had some idea based off of a live show or a demo what to expect, from there we knew based upon intuition what approach we should take for the song. The song will tell you what it needs, which means you better be flexible in your micing techniques. Harvey Gerst always skirts this stuff because he also knows that "it despends" opens up so much subjectiveness to micing techniques it makes ya dizzy. Fletcher has even said that a large amount of engineering is experiemntal because nothing is ever exactly the same as your last experience. Close micing is not the end all technique and neither is 2 overheads, and there is an infinite number of variable in between. I recently remember Littledog reminding folks that close micing doesn't work for larger choirs or orchestra, and that bleed in those particualr applications sound great if the micing is done with care. Shack, experiment with 2, 3 ,4 ,5 etc until you get the sound you want. Learn to be flexible and don't be afraid to say what you hear is what you like. As a tech, keep the number low so I can at least enjoy a break. I used to cringe seeing these mega kits rolling up to the loading dock...You almost always have to mic a monster using close micing. Im sure Sjoko loved having to ride 16 channels of drum mics There is my 2 cents!

SoMm

 

[VOXVENDOR]

This whole thread revolves around one issue....

How do you want your snare to sound.....

Distant and Roomy, or Up front with a sharp crack....????


My opinion.. up front with a sharp crack, but for certain applications it's nice to have it a bit roomy...

I'm starting to realize that the 3 most important things in drum recording is....

A) Player ability, and solid hits the same way every time
B) Drum quality, and tuning
C) Sound of the room

IN that order.

Where you put your mics comes in at #4 as far as I'm concerned. I have been doing quite a bit of experimenting recently, and placement of mics is not really the big clincher.....

When I pound the fuck out of the drums and hit the cymbals lightly.. And make sure every hit is the same strength, the drum sound practically creates itself...

If I play like alot of novice's do and like I used to when I was beginning.... Very light on the drums... some hits harder than others, some hits are barely touching the drum, and bashing the shit out of the cymbals, I end up with a shitty drum sound irregardless of how I mic the kit.

(hehe, sort of sounds like Cotton)(Bitchslaps Ex-Drummer)

Of course if you have a kick mic and 2 overheads, your gonna get a different sound, than if you put single mics on every drum....

But as in for which one is better than the other, totally depends on what your looking for.

Anyways.. I'm rambling.... What were we talking about???

Oh..... Snare recording....

 

[davechurchill]

Every time I mic the snare (using an sm57), I never like it. It doesn't seem to add what it's supposed to be adding.

Would be great if someone posted a sound file of a snare recorded with an sm57, and then the overheads of the snare, and then a mix of the two together. What levels do you bring the two together? And a sound file of a mic on the bottom of the snare, too, and then mixed with the others. Just to get an idea of what these are supposed to sound like, and what happens when you bring them together.

Thanks if anyone does this.

Dave

 

[littledog]

wow! i seemed to have missed all the fun!

I've been using Recorderman's two drumstick overhead method for over a year now on virtually everything. Usually with a pair of MC012's. My overhead sound is so much better than it was with previous methods that it is beyond comparison - basically i used to use the overheads mostly to get the cymbals- now they can cover the whole kit if need be.

But even though I'm getting a far better overhead picture of the kit than I ever did before, I still close mic the toms and snare. The reason? Why not?

I'm not in a situation where i'm suffering from a scarcity of mics and/or tracks. Maybe I will want to replace (or mix in) a sampled snare on a certain song for a particular effect. Maybe I will want to do something weird with eq or reverb. Or maybe I'll just mute the tracks and never even listen to them. I like to have the production options. Does that make me a wimp? Maybe according to Chessrock, but it all comes down to the client - and one of the reasons they like me and use me is because they know they HAVE those options.

So, if it offends Chessrock's sense of artistic purity to use more than three mics, and he is getting a sound that he and/or his clients are happy with, then everything is cool. Nothing says we all have to work the same way using the same methods or techniques. I don't believe it makes any of us any better or smarter than anyone else, whichever side of the fence one may be on this issue.

It's true that Chess does have a way of slyly stirring the pot with the way he skillfully words his various posts (like comparing multi-mic'ing a drum kit to multi-mic'ing a vocalist's mouth...) - but that's cool - subtle sarcasm tends to make the place more lively (especially when one can actually read these threads without waiting a half-hour for them to load.) Of course, I would never use sarcasm myself... (ahem).

Pipeline's point about minimalist disinformation was particularly interesting. I can't imagine why anyone would lie about stuff like that - it's not like they are getting endorsement money from the "Three Mic Institute of Drum Recording"! It just goes to show, you can't trust anyone anymore. (Except Harvey and Pipeline, of course!)

Anyway, I'm glad Chess is getting better sounds now that he threw half his mics away. (Remind me to look through his garbage cans on trash day.) I think I get great sounds too, though, so just don't ask me to do the same thing!

 

[gorbyrun]

I must say, I am quite pleased with the two drumstick overhead miking technique. Whoever came up with it deserves a medal. It makes so much sense, and sounds great. For me, my only concern has been the mic in front of the kit and danger to the overhead microphone. I had read somewhere, I think Fletcher, that a U47 or 149 or something was key to getting the front of the kit. Not having these options, I set up with 2 SM81s for overheads and my T3 for front of kit. There was indeed plenty of snare. The trouble I had was getting the bass drum "tight" and I seemed to be getting too much of the top of the snare, and not enough of the bottom. With the drum set I was using, I wound up with mics under the toms and snare and in the bass drum. This worked pretty well. Instead of Miking the Front of the kit with one mic, I liked having 5 better. However, to make it work you need to reverse the polarity on the bottom mics.
There is danger in this technique. The overhead over the drummer's shoulder is definately in peril. It's bound to get hit, mine did. This could ruin a take. Further there are a lot of mics you can use as OHs that will not like being cracked with a drum stick.
On the good side... sounds great. Also, I get kits sometimes that are really hard to mic. Everything is so close together... I've had drummers who keep there cymbles like 3 inches from the tops of their toms. Going in from below gives me more control if I need it and there is only 1 mic that might get in the way.