expensive vs. low-cost guitars?

  • Thread starter Thread starter illuminatedwax
  • Start date Start date
I

illuminatedwax

New member
I read on another internet forum that if you swapped out the electronics inside an Epiphone Les Paul and a Gibson Les Paul Studio, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

My understanding of guitars is that this is totally wrong. Am I crazy? From what I have been told (and experienced) is that the better the guitar, the nicer the intonation, action, etc., is -- all physical characteristics. Never would I guess that the electronics are THAT different (except maybe some nicer pickups).

So my question is, what is the real difference between a really expensive electric guitar and a moderately priced one?
 
illuminatedwax said:
So my question is, what is the real difference between a really expensive electric guitar and a moderately priced one?
Click to expand...

This one should give everyone something to talk about for a few days, because it's really an open ended question.

When it comes down to it, practically all production guitar bodies and necks are cut on computer controlled machines. That eliminates a ton of human error with intonation, and part fit etc. Some would also say that the wood is better in a Gibson than in a Epi. I say that's possible, but only by chance. Certainly you could get a better looking piece of wood, and that would be easy. But, when it comes down to it, I don't think most manufactures will be paying very many people who would actually be qualified enough to say in advance... "this piece of northern hard maple is going to sound better than this piece of northern hard maple." Of course, such a thing would be very difficult to prove.

So, the things that are different would be pickups, hardware, and the biggest difference would be the guy who does the fret work (if any) and cuts the nut.
I've picked up my share of bad playing $2500.00 Gibson Les Pauls and Custom Shop Fender guitars. Just because you have a certain name on a guitar doesn't make it great.

Peace!

~Shawn
 
I was thinking about this yesterday. My go-to guitar these days cost me €350. It's a Yamaha Pacifica 412 and it really is a fantastic guitar - I don't mean 'for the money, it's a fantatsic guitar', I mean it's just a great all round piece of equipment. I've been neglecting my more expensive Teles in favour of it too. But I honestly couldn't make a call on which is better, I'm very comfortable on a Tele neck.
 
changing out pickups is probably 90% of an electric's sound, in my opinion.

has nothing to do with logo and price...more about the wire, wraps, magnets, setup, strings. does it sound the way you like it.

setup of the guitar is the other 90% of the sound...:p

i read someone convinced John Lennon Beatle to strip the paint and shellac off his Casino Epiphone so the wood could "breathe"...so the blonde on Let It Be is actually the same Casoino Epi from Nowhere Man and Rain days.

wood on an electric seems strange to me, especially if its painted over and all that thick poly they use today.

the thick poly clearcoat, used so often today, is to prevent nicks and dings in the store and was not intended to make the guitar sound better...it was to prevent returns and stores losing money on dinged up guitars. money driven.
<as I understand it> I believe it seeing the dinged up Eric Johnson Strats with thin Nitro....like the older days, they get really beat up in the Super Guitar Mart I go to.

the old highly sought after violins don't have gobby car paint and clearcoat poly on them...so this aligns with the sound theory and globby effect.

can I hear a difference of paint or not painted....I plead the 5th.:o

pickups you can get a pretty obvious tone change....gritty, creamy, or bitey...what the other kinds?:p

oops...

off subject...back to post..
 
I don't know. There was a guy on another forum that made some clips with a guitar, stripped the finish from, and tung oiled the body, and then made identical clips ( he posted them as left/right on a stereo track). The difference was readily apparent, which surprised me to no end. So I'd have to assume everything makes a difference, even if I agree that the electronics are the bulk of a solid-bodied electric's sound.
 
I have been buying cheap guitars lately which I find are as good or better than my 3500 Gibson.

Will they hold up over time like the Gibson has? Only time will tell.
 
When I was looking to buy a Fender Telecaster, I'd tried a fair number of 'em, from the MIM Standards to the entry level for American models. I forget how many I'd tried all together, but when I was ready to plunk down some bucks (30-day lay-away, though), I was at the Guitar Center in Indianapolis, and had tried more Standards vs. the higher dollar models within my budget. It was a sunburst MIM Tele that ultimately won the shootout; with tones every bit as good as the higher dollar models I'd been trying.

At a music store in Jacksonville, FL, back in 2004, I'd tried a MIM Tele vs. a Highway One Tele, without plugging either one into an amp. In that case, I could tell the difference between the Standard vs. the Highway One. Had I had the bucks with me, that day, I would've left the store with the Highway One Tele. When I was at the Indy Guitar Center, sometime early last year, I was trying out several Gibson and Epiphone Les Paul models, as well as a Melody Maker. When I tried the Melody Maker, I could tell that one would lose against my Epiphone Les Paul Jr. 90, yet I just finished a lay-away (yesterday) on a Gibson Melody Maker that'll flat out-tone the Epi by a long shot. Not that I love the Epi any less, but the Melody Maker will be my go-to guitar for leads and lead/rhythm parts.

Also realize that there are some folks out there that can make a First Act guitar, through a First Act combo amp, sound like whatever guitar it's shaped like.

Matt
 
TelePaul said:
I was thinking about this yesterday. My go-to guitar these days cost me €350. It's a Yamaha Pacifica 412 and it really is a fantastic guitar - I don't mean 'for the money, it's a fantatsic guitar', I mean it's just a great all round piece of equipment. I've been neglecting my more expensive Teles in favour of it too. But I honestly couldn't make a call on which is better, I'm very comfortable on a Tele neck.
Click to expand...

I own a Pacifica too...Well,Modified (Pick ups, frets, body shape), and I´m satisfied with it.I put some EMG pickups (a "love it or hate it" pickup, I know..), but works very well to me.

Ciro
 
The biggest thing I've noticed between high end guitars and budget guitars is feel and playability. My Ernie Ball Silhoutte Special is high end and it feels it. The frets, neck, finish, workmanship, etc. Yesterday I played my little bro's new Dean something or the other. Probably a $400 guitar. It was good looking and sounded fine. But it didn't feel or play anywhere near as well as my Ernie Ball.

I've also played the OP budget version of the Silhouette and it felt similar and sounded similar, but just didn't have that "sheen" and the feel wasn't quite there. But for the money, that is a great guitar.

I've also played a high end strat that I thought was just a standard or even a mexi until the owner told me it was an American. It didnt' feel any different than the mid or lower end strats I've played.
 
illuminatedwax said:
I read on another internet forum that if you swapped out the electronics inside an Epiphone Les Paul and a Gibson Les Paul Studio, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
Click to expand...


Not at all true. It is true that the electronics in the Epi stuff is junk, really only worth throwing in the trash, but the fit and finish on the Gibson stuff is certainly better. Also, they use better hardware, and better wood to boot. This doesn't mean that an Epi can't be an OK guitar, but there are very real differences.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Forgot to add that the one place where the price is heard is in acoustic guitars. $1k on an acoustic guitar will blow away any $500 or lower guitar hands down in both playability and sound. I've had that argument many times both online and in person. The argument gets settled everytime when I let the person try my guitar. And mine isn't even the greatest. Go to any high end shop and try a Breedlove, Collings, Santa Cruz, etc and compare that to the plywood at the local big chain.
 
JR#97 said:
Forgot to add that the one place where the price is heard is in acoustic guitars. $1k on an acoustic guitar will blow away any $500 or lower guitar hands down in both playability and sound. I've had that argument many times both online and in person. The argument gets settled everytime when I let the person try my guitar. And mine isn't even the greatest. Go to any high end shop and try a Breedlove, Collings, Santa Cruz, etc and compare that to the plywood at the local big chain.
Click to expand...

I've definitely experienced this myself, and it is an epiphany. In fact, that's why I am curious about electrics -- before I would have thought to just buy a mid-range guitar, but now I'm not so sure.
 
COOLCAT said:
changing out pickups is probably 90% of an electric's sound, in my opinion.

has nothing to do with logo and price...more about the wire, wraps, magnets, setup, strings. does it sound the way you like it.

setup of the guitar is the other 90% of the sound...:p
Click to expand...

The other 90% would have to be the person that's playing the guitar :-)

Owning dozens of guitars throughout the years (and playing dozens more), my ranking on what makes an electric guitar sound different is (#1 making the greatest difference):

1. Pickups -especially single vs. hummers - 90%
2. Maple vs. dark wood fretboard - 3.4%
3. Solid vs. not-solid body - 3.3%
4. How the strings are attached to the body (think through the back, vs. hard-tail Strat style, vs. Gibson tune-o-matic style, vs. etc.) - 3.3%

Price/name mean just about nothing anymore. If you have fresh strings that are put on properly (so they don't slip) and appropriate set-up, then my list of 4 above are the biggies.

The comment about the guy doing a before and after refinishing is totally questionable to me. We don't know for a fact what else he was doing to the guitar or during the recording process.

What I do not include on this is playability and/or looks - that's totally subjective to your likes/dislikes.
 
I have owned a variety of electric (and acoustic and resonator and...) guitars over the years and here's my take:

Name brand guitars mean, generally no surprises.

This cuts both ways: I had a Ventura Chet Atkins Country Gentleman copy that, tuned to open C and played with a bottleneck, had a sound that approached a Hammond B3 (disclaimer: I'm not into imitation, just trying to describe a sound). I gigged with it, and over the years a lot of guys fell in love with and wanted to buy it from me because it did something different from the usual guitar.

The OTHER surprise, of course, is finding that you've got to perform surgery to change out the pickups, or there are hidden compromises in the materials or electronics. Be aware that cheap axes are built with an eye to preserving the cosmetics, NOT the underlying quality, of whatever they are copying (and cheap gits invariably are copying something better).

So "changing out the electronics" may not help: you still have to deal with potentially less stable wood underneath that attractive finish, "gold plating" that rubs off on your hand, and the like. It's more than just a difference in wood (to use one example): I read an ad recently for an Epi LP that had alder over mahogany, in comparison to maple over mahogany on the real-deal Gibson: the ad touted alder as an alternate BUT there's also the issue of the drying of the wood, did they substitute green alder for properly aged and dried maple, and so on? An expert could think of many more issues.

Necks are notoriously variable, and again, the razor cuts on both the up and the down stroke. I'm pretty tolerant of variances in neck profile (but, then, I play electric, acoustic, bass, and stuff like lap steels, and my touch with an individual instrument my not be so sophisticated that my opinions mean anything) but if you're NOT, be prepared to deal with that issue as well.

For some undetermined reason, cheaper axes seem to have more highly crowned (smaller numeric radius) fingerboards. This can be a deal-killer, and is one of the best (along with nut width) reasons not to buy online.

So: a cheapo can be crapshoot, either leading you down the rocky path of inferior electronics, ergonomics and materials, or it can be a door opening into a room that doesn't exist for those who stick to well-known brands.

There's one simple test: play it. Then all your questions will be answers.
 
Last edited:
CIRO said:
I own a Pacifica too...Well,Modified (Pick ups, frets, body shape), and I´m satisfied with it.I put some EMG pickups (a "love it or hate it" pickup, I know..), but works very well to me.

Ciro
Click to expand...

You modified the body shape? Interesting! I really like mine which is odd considering how much I despise strats...I've a three pickup Tele and like those 'in-between' sounds, positions 2 and 4. But the Pacifica sure sounds good and plays pretty nice too. Having a vibrato again is fun!
 
shouldn't we also add to the equation the fact that maybe 80 or 90% of tone comes from the amp (a tube amp)?

for people who can afford the expensive guitars, i think they can make a lot of sense, but they also take money to maintain.

my current guitar cost me $175, plus pickups, a fake bigsby, bridge, nut - upgrades. I should add that it's a really fine, chunky piece of mahogany, mildly striped maple top, very nice sound.

well, when the time comes, 10 years from now or whenever, to re-fret it - likely I'll just get a new guitar, maybe keep the bigsby and the pickups. Because it will be cheaper than a re-fret.

when you've "invested" in that expensive gibson (or fender, whatever), better be ready to pay hundreds of dollars later to keep it working. Expensive case, insurance, etc., etc.

Actually, I'll sell my guitar before it gets too bad - i will have cut my losses. So I don't need it to "hold up" for too long, but it certainly feels solid, like it would.

but i honestly don't feel that i'm sacrificing any tone. your money is better spent on amps. i also don't worry about scratching it or it being stolen.

So, I'd say: www.rondomusic.com - an even better source than Epi.

P.S. and re: action/intonation - on electric guitars it's fully adjustable, so as long as that cheap guitar is properly built, it's really in your hands (or your tech's).
 
Here's something I didn't think about until recently - given that I've got a boat load of guitars, I tend to keep the cheaper ones sitting out, already plugged in to an amp.... and the pricier ones end up back in their cases.

Guess which one's get played more.

As far as longevity - I've never got rid of a guitar because I felt it was getting old and falling apart. Even my first guitar, a $50 Yamaha Classical from 1971 is still as playable as when it was new.
 
illuminatedwax said:
I read on another internet forum that if you swapped out the electronics inside an Epiphone Les Paul and a Gibson Les Paul Studio, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
Click to expand...

Highlighted a couple words for emphasis, as this argument depends on two factors.

1.) The Internet. No one EVER lies on the internet, or tries to pass off their opinion as fact, right? ;)

2.) that's the real wildcard here, even more so than the difference in build quality between an exceptionally nice Epi and a sub-par Gibson. Could I tell the difference between a modded Epi and a stock Gibson, with the headstock logo and serial number taped over? I'd bet on it - I've played a lot of guitars over the years, some nice and some not so, and I doubt I'd even need to plug them in to tell you which was made of the better peice of wood. Could some guy who picked up his first strat a year ago and has since drooled over LP's on the net tell them apart? I'd doubt it.

So, that statement depends so much on the experience of the person making the comparison, as much if not more than the guitars. On top of that, it also depends on the tastes of the subjective judger; for me, I'm just not that into the LP design - given the choice between an Epi with upgraded electronics, and a stock Gibson, I might just go with the Epiphone and pocket the extra grand, whereas someone with a real soft spot for 24.75" mahogany bodied guitars with maple caps and humbuckers might feel that the slight differences were such that the extra money was worth it.

That said, Gibson Studios can be had cheaply enough (and the ones I've played have rocked enough, fingers crossed) that that would be my ideal solution. ;)

illuminatedwax said:
From what I have been told (and experienced) is that the better the guitar, the nicer the intonation, action, etc., is -- all physical characteristics. Never would I guess that the electronics are THAT different (except maybe some nicer pickups).
Click to expand...

Assuming an intelligently designed guitar, no major issues, and a competent tech, that sort of stuff all comes down to the setup of a guitar. As long as the frets are at least reasonably well installed (and even Korean guitars made in the last year or two are surprisingly playable), you should be able to get action quite low before buzz becomes an issue, and unless you're playing super-heavy-guage strings tuned to Meshuggah depths or below, I haven't met many guitars that I haven't been able to intonate. As long as the fundamental build quality is OK, a properly tweaked "affordable" guitar should have action comparable to something quite nice. It's just the little things at that point, something you can't quite put your finger on about the way a guitar "feels" and the way you feel inspired when you pick it up, that gives the premium guitar its edge.
 
JR#97 said:
Forgot to add that the one place where the price is heard is in acoustic guitars. $1k on an acoustic guitar will blow away any $500 or lower guitar hands down in both playability and sound. I've had that argument many times both online and in person. The argument gets settled everytime when I let the person try my guitar. And mine isn't even the greatest. Go to any high end shop and try a Breedlove, Collings, Santa Cruz, etc and compare that to the plywood at the local big chain.
Click to expand...

It's certainly easier to pin down on acoustics of any kind!

The most recent guitar I bought was a lovely Burguet Noguera (classical). I tried a whole bunch of instruments and they were all very different in noticable ways.

I've never understood how the various woods in an electric guitar contribute to the sound, other than affecting the sustain, although I'm willing to believe that they do.

Expensive guitars do usually play better and are often better designs and come with nicer features.

The last electric I bought was an American Deluxe Strat, and a/b testing it against a regular strat was like night and day. The electronics and pups in the regular strat were naturally totally different, and I much prefered the deluxe. It had much higher output and the SCN pups, although not a traditional strat sound, were 'stratty' enough and made a noise I really liked.

I felt that the deluxe also played better. Jumbo frets made a big difference. The model of deluxe (http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/4/8/3/229483.jpg) I ended up with also has a much nicer feeling neck and lovely fingerboard.

The extra features also made a big difference. Decent locking tuners, straplocks, S1 switching, nice leather strap.

Naturally you could put most of these things into a cheaper guitar - right down to changing the neck!

Once you start changing things out, you have a different instument though (I don't think the strap makes too much difference - who knows though, maybe you will find your perfect tone with the right strap! ;) ).

There is certainly a place for cheap-ass axes though! In some situations they can shine.

I'd like to add that one of the most 'kinky' (in a good way) sounding guitars I ever played was one of the worst playing. It was some lightweight thing from the late early 60's ('star' something? I wish I could remember), they made an edition with a speaker in it I think.

It played like total crap, but had this unique sound...
It only did the one thing - but it did it so well, really beautifully nasty sounding thing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top