expensive studio monitors - now what?

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Giganova

Giganova

gimmi your mic!
hi all --

last week I got a pair of M-Audio BX8 studio monitors. Just finished a track using them, and did some pre-mastering with Izotope Ozone. The tracks sounds reaaaally good on the studio monitors (deep bases, crispy clear synth & vocals, etc). In order to avoid a muddy sound, I also used a low-end cut off at 40Hz. So far, so good.

Well, here's the catch: just made a copy of the song on CD, listened to it on my home stereo and car stereo -- and it sounds HORIBLE! Instead of a deep and clear bass line, all I hear is a deep & muddy hum. You can bearly hear the vocals, etc etc etc.

Did I do something wrong?? Are the studio monitors "too good" or do I have to "learn" them first?? When I used cheap hifi speakers my mixes were much better, coz I knew how it will sound like on a crappy home/car stereo. With the new monitors, I lost that feeling completely.

Here's the song I was talking about:

 
IMO, thats why I think expensive monitors are a complete waste of money. sure they COULD sound good, but nobody will hear the CD on thoes speakers. Maybe CD walkmans, boomboxes, car stereos, but not monitors? The best way to monitor a mix is to use something practicle. a home stereo, a walkman, a boombox. thinks REAL people use. just my $.02
 
I wouldn't list any of M-audio's monitors as very expensive as far as monitors go. Those would be Adams and Genelecs...stuff like that.
I've heard it said (seen it typed) that the BX8s sound like high fi speakers. I think that means they clear up midrange and add some shine. Good studio monitors shouldn't do that....shouldn't I say.
I don't have much experience with those speakers but I have Alesis M1s which are aimed at the same socio-economic demograph. The trick fo me was to get them in a good spot in the room. If your bedroom is square or rectangle you are bound to have low end problems. Try listening around the room while you mix. If there are spots in the room where bass seems louder that means there are places where it is quieter. Make sure you don't mix in the peaks or troughs of the soundwave buildup.
 
Your mix has very little punch and lacks detail in the mids.... it could also use a little top end.

It is also extremely bass-heavy.... don't forget that too much bass can suck the power and energy right out of your mix.........

I suspect it's so bass-heavy because you really can't hear what's going on in the low end (due to your monitors, their placement, the room, or a combination of all three...)

And DaveDrummer - the best way to monitor is on speakers that don't hype the sound one way or another as well as ones that allow you to hear a good portion of the audio spectrum cleanly -- many hifi speakers tend to add a glossly sheen over anything, ensuring that you miss critical problems in your mix.

Many small nearfields are extremely bass-shy, so the tendency is to boost the low-end unnecessarily when someone unfamiliar with the monitors uses them to mix with.
 
I agree, but you cant forget: most mixes are played through unaccurate speakers to begin with (compared to studio monitors).
 
Your rationalization is like a doctor doing surgery with a screwdriver... yeah, a screwdriver can cut skin, but the results are pretty crude.

If you're recording sound, you need to be able to hear what you're recording, with as little hype and coloration as possible, otherwise how do you know you've captured the sound properly?!?!

I honestly don't see how anyone can advocate a preference for using less than sufficient speakers when needing to make critical sonic decisions.

Imagine at a disease control centre... "no we don't need any microscopes - all I do is look, and if I don't see any germs on the table, I know it's safe.......!" duh!

I'm guessing you're new to the field of recording, eh?
 
It's true that most people listen on inaccurate, nonflat speakers. That is why it is that much more important to hear the mix accurately while recording. If you mix and on bass shy speakers and playback on a bass heavy home theater system you will be twice as bassy as you meant to be.

Make sense?
 
Imagine at a disease control centre... "no we don't need any microscopes - all I do is look, and if I don't see any germs on the table, I know it's safe.......!" yeah - right.......
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Nice one!!:D

Dave Drummer, good monitors aren't supposed to sound flattering. They are meant to reveal all the little things in the mix not cover them up and hype the sound like Hi fi speakers do.

The main thing with monitors is to learn how they translate to other sources like hifi's and boomboxes. Usually the more expensive the monitors the less of the learning curve to how they translate due to the flatter respnse.

Tukkis
 
i'm gonna echo some things others have said, first and most important, monitors are designed to be truthful (what sound you put in is what you're gonna get out) the reason for your muddy mixes is the monitors are designed to handle just about anything, so you can really beef up a mix with them and they'll take it...but everyday speakers are desinged to sound "good" or "better" this is done usually by accenting mid-low bass frequency's (100-300hz) you're monitors are giving you much more detail and you're playin' in the 40-100hz range which does sound good, but frankly most home/car stereos can't handle....i have a rather unconventional way of using my monitors in conjunction with my computer speakers which basicaly goes as follows, track with the monitors (you'll hear you're own mistakes better and will, in-turn, perform better) when tweaking eq's i start with the monitors then switch them off and use my computer speakers w/subwoofer, this gives me a better feel for how things will sound on regular home speakers, then i have a third set of speakers which were the origional ones that came with my computer (real small and crappy ones), these i use to simulate a "boombox" sound, so i can check my mix there. the trick is proper bass management, think of the 20-100hz range as "movie theatre bass" there's not alot of musical tone there, so it's good to keep it way down and under control, if you want you kick sound to hit through, boost @ around 120hz and cut sharply at the muck below that range, shelving comes in handy here....ok i'm rambling about eq too much, now when playing with compressors and other dynamics processing, it's better to use the monitors because you need an accurate idea of where things are in the mix. so i guess my point is to use your monitors as a tool, and not as some high-quality speakers that sound great.

peace

wyd
 
I can assure you that, with my BlueSky monitors, there is a lot of bass. a LOT!!!

Certainely the first thing correct.
 
Thanxxx a lot for your reply, guys.

I agree that the bass line might be too heavy in the mix.

While the studio monitors can reproduce the bass and and all other frequencies perfectly, the speakers on my hifi/car stereo can't. That's why the mix sounds muddy on other systems. The mix sounds very balanced on my monitors.

So what should I do? Apply a low-frequency cut-off? At which frequency? Or bosst the mid/high range?

Also, my monitors have three different setting for high- and low-frequency cutoffs. I think I've set the low-frequency cut-off to 40Hz or so. Shall I use the 80Hz cut-off so I hear more bass in the final mix and use it more carefully?

Damn, mixing with these monitors is really frustatring.

P.S.: jake-okawa -- you're right that the M-Audio are not eaxctly super-expensive monitors, but for almost 500 buxx they are expensive for me :p
 
Also, my monitors have three different setting for high- and low-frequency cutoffs. I think I've set the low-frequency cut-off to 40Hz or so. Shall I use the 80Hz cut-off so I hear more bass in the final mix and use it more carefully?
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You'll hear less bass with an 80Hz cut-off point as it'll be cutting off from 80Hz and below instead of 40Hz and below

So what should I do? Apply a low-frequency cut-off? At which frequency? Or bosst the mid/high range?
Click to expand...

It depends where your music is going to be played the most

Tukkis
 
uhh...

shouldnt you hear more bass in your monitor? This way you will mix these freq in a way you wont put too much bass in you mix?

When I bought my Events 2020bas, in 1997, everything that came out of here was too muddy. so, to correct my mixes I put MORE bass in my monitors, this way there were less. And, I slowly turn the bass down, where it should be.

well, it's just a suggestion! :)

Hope it can help

see ya!
 
I slowly get it

ok, I think I begin to understand what's happening, thanks to your comments:

There's too much bass in the mix coz home stereos are designed to boost the bass. I'll use the "30Hz cut-off" switch on my monitors in the future to add more bass, so I can hear when the mix is too bass heavy. The bass is usually in the 20-100Hz range, right? Where shall I cut-off so it sounds good in "club" environment? 40Hz? 80Hz? (my tracks are inteneded for a dance-floor type of audence).

I'll also check the room acoustics and see if there are places where the bass is loudest. My room is square, and I've acoustically treated it so it sounds acoustically "dead". I noticed that the monitors only sound good when I am about 3-4 feet away. That seems to be the sweet spot. When I go further away, the bass get very loud. If I go to the other side of the (small) room, the bass disappears almost completely (but the floor still vibrates a lot). Maybe when I am sitting in my chair in front of the speakers, I am located at a "valley" of the bass wavelength. Could that be?

The BX8 seem to emphasis the mid-range. I guess I just have to know that and accent the mid-range accordingly. That's part of the "getting to know your monitors".

Apart from that, I agree that these monitors are very accurate. When I got them I could hear things (including lots of mistakes) in the mix I wasn't even aware of. In the future I'll track with my monitors and an additional pair of "home hifi speakers" to see how it'll sound like in a typical end-customer situation (I still have a pair of Sony home-theater speakers I could hook up).

Does that make sense?

Here's my last question: I intend to send my songs to a mastering facility anyway. In that case, should I even bother eq-ing at home? The actual track is not eq-ed at all, coz I do all the eq at the end, when I dump a stereo image of the song and polish it up with Ozone to make it sound better, and then down-dither it to 16/44.1. Maybe I should just skip that part?
 
IMO many people use bass boost, and thus the bass is way too high if it was mixed on a 'flat' monitor.
 
If you're sending it to a mastering house anyways, you should do nothing except make the best possible mix you can - well-balanced, tight & focused sound, strong arrangement. Let the ME handle the final cleaning/polishing....
 
I agree

If you plan to get real mastering, forget Ozone and all "home-pseudo-mastering" stuff. You should mix your songs the best you can, and thats it.

About the bass thing, keep in mind that the night clubs cut the mids and boost the low and high ends like we cant even imagine. I know it, a few song of my ex band were playing in the main night clubs in montreal, and woooo hello Mr. Bass, see ya Mr. Mid.
So, maybe you shouldnt really do some "pre night club mix".

About your room, also keep in mind that, bass freq are physically longer then high freq. It's important (to me!) to always care about this point when you check your mix from different places in the same room. Yes, I always do this, I even go in one of the booth and half-close the door. This way I can analyse more correctly whats going on around 60hz. Obviously, it wont be the same thing in your room(s).

Hope this is usefull...if not, I thik I once again progress positively my english :)
 
got it!

thanks for your extremely helpful replies!

The reason why I use Ozone is just to polish it up a bit before I send the traxx to friends/colleagues for revision. When I send my stuff to a mastering house, I'll send the original mix, of course.

Cheers!
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
If you're sending it to a mastering house anyways, you should do nothing except make the best possible mix you can - well-balanced, tight & focused sound, strong arrangement. Let the ME handle the final cleaning/polishing....
Click to expand...


And the Dithering. ( Letting the ME do it that is)

I used to track @ 24/48 and when I attempted my processing and got to the resample state, I wasn't getting what I was looking for.

Started tracking @ 24/44.1 and skipped the resampling and much better. I guess this is were the good gear comes into play. Wavelab's resample wasn't cutting it.

Malcolm
 
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