Expensive Mic With Inexpensive PA?

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Mikegilles

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OK,
You've all given me some stellar advice on high end vocal microphones and I'm taking it to heart. One more question: Let's say I was to buy and use one of these great vocal mics, and I showed up at a venue using a rather inexpensive PA like a Carvin CX630 6 chanell 200 watt powered mixer with 822 12" speakers. Someone mentioned to me if I use a great mic with this inexpensive kind of system it would not show off the vocal qualities of the mic? The guy suggested that the sound chain is only as good as its weakest link. Then I wondered if it would be OK to use with my SWR California Blonde Acoustic Amp for smaller venues? Am I looking at having to upgrade my PA in order to take advantage of say, the Neumann KMS-105? Thanks for taking the time to walk through some of these issues with me.
Regards,
Mike Gilles
 
There is some logic to the "weakest link" theory, I feel that you may as well feed the "weakest link" the best signal you can. People also feel a good mic or pre or whatever can reveal defects in the system. Oh, well, if my Neumann shows that my PA has harsh high end, I can turn it down, and know if I get a better system, my vocals are covered.

Don't let any of that stop you, basically, if the system sounds OK already. :)

As far as the SWR, does it offer phantom power? If so, it will come down to how you feel it sounds, nothing else. Give it a try, you won't be breaking any laws. It may make more sense to bring your Carvin and just one speaker, in terms of placement for best coverage/feedback rejection. It may not, also.

My .02
 
If your PA does not provide phantom power needed by your mic, you can always add an auxiliary phantom power supply to your rack.

From eBay, I bought a used Rolls Hex rack mount unit that works great and powers 6 mic channels. Other Rolls boxes will provide phantom power to a single channel, and in a smaller unit.

Be sure to find a unit that provides full +48v phantom, and at sufficient current as required by your mic.

***

Clarity and wide coverage are the hallmarks of a good PA system. IMO, most of the limitation is in the speakers, not the electronics.

Check into the horn loaded PA cab designs from Bill Fitzmaurice.
Link to Bill Fitzmaurice

These are cutting edge designs for the DIY community. They are DIY because the amount of labor is prohibitive for commerical cabs that have to turn a 5x markup profit. You can contract with one of his builders for a DR250 at a price very competitive with mass produced cabs.

Depending on your location, there might be a builder close to you for an audition. Horn loaded cabs deliver very high sound pressure levels even with modest power amps.
 
Certainly the quality of the PA would definately affect just how much impact a nicer mic will have. However, I would not use that as an excuse to not get one. A nicer mic, in general, will still sound better. The quality of the PA will also however narrow or expand the perceived quality difference between certain mics. But, if you get the nicer mic it can at least grow with you. PLus, you will have it for recording purposes, and for other gigs where maybe the PA is much better, and you will have it if you get a better PA down the road.
 
xstatic said:
A nicer mic, in general, will still sound better. The quality of the PA will also however narrow or expand the perceived quality difference between certain mics.

I couldn't agree more.


Pete
 
The two things which make the most difference in sound are the endpoints: microphones and speakers.
 
bgavin said:
Clarity and wide coverage are the hallmarks of a good PA system. IMO, most of the limitation is in the speakers, not the electronics.

Check into the horn loaded PA cab designs from Bill Fitzmaurice.
Link to Bill Fitzmaurice

These are cutting edge designs for the DIY community. They are DIY because the amount of labor is prohibitive for commerical cabs that have to turn a 5x markup profit. You can contract with one of his builders for a DR250 at a price very competitive with mass produced cabs.

Depending on your location, there might be a builder close to you for an audition. Horn loaded cabs deliver very high sound pressure levels even with modest power amps.

I was very impressed with Bill Fitzmaurice's site and plans. After reading through a ton of posts, I ordered the plans to the DR250, Tuba 24, and Wedgehorn. I'll be bringing them to a friend who is a professional cabinet maker to look over. If they turn out like I expect, both ends of my signal -- the KMS-105 and speaker cabinets -- will be covered. Now, it's what's in between that has yet to be determined. I'm over my head here so I'm immersing myself in "The Acoustic Musician's Guide To Sound Reinforcement & Live Recording" and "The Handbook of Acoustics." I'd still like to hear others suggestions for the electronics I should go for.
Regards,
Mike Gilles
 
The 'Weakest Link' principle does apply to audio chains because any item along the way can screw up a sound.

But I may be a little contrarian here in saying that a Great Microphone does not require a great preamp.

Why?

Because if your microphone already provides all the nice qualities that you want to record...all the 'warmth' or 'smoothness' or whatever... then all you need from the preamp is two things:

1. Make the signal stronger

2. Not screw it up.

You don't need a preamp that is going to add anything to the sound with the right mic and placement because with the right mic and placement the sound already has everything you want. Whenever I hear somebody say that such and such a mic really needs a good preamp what I really hear is that the mic is crappy but with the right preamp it can cover it up by adding the qualities that the mic is lacking in.
 
I took delivery on my new Neumann KMS-105. When I plugged it in to my Carvin CX630 and turned on the phantom power, I had to turn the master volume and the channel volume up all the way in order to get a conversational volume out of it. I suspected the phantom power was not 48v so I took it to my local music store and the Neumann worked fine with their PA. I called Carvin and they said that the older PA's didn't have full 48v phantom power. OK, so I'm shopping for a phantom power supply. Do ya'll have any warnings about what makes or models I should avoid? How about suggestions on your favorite ones?
Regards,
Mike Gilles
 
That's interesting. A lot of folks are using the KMS-105 with the Bose PAS system and it works GREAT!!! The PAS only supplies 24v Phantom power. I have heard some comments about current demands actually having more of an effect than the voltage. The PAS apparently has lots of available current for the phantom power circuit.

Good luck with your problem. And have fun with the KMS-105. It is a fantastic mic.

Don
 
See bgavin's post in re: the Rolls unit(s). It's just gotta provide the right voltage with solid direct current.
 
From what I've been reading, since the Rolls PB223 Dual Phantom Power Adaptor uses a 100KHz switching power supply there is no audio noise generated. I can pick one up for about $54.00 and it will work with my Carvin and my SWR California Blonde acoustic amp. Somewhere down the road I'm thinking I should sell both the Carvin and SWR and step up to a really fine PA system. I've been looking at possibly having someone build some of the speakers from plans from Bill Fitzmaurice. Thanks for your feedback.
Regards,
Mike Gilles
 
Well, I went out to my favorite music dealer and bought the Rolls PB223 Dual Phantom Power Adaptor. I came home and plugged my new Neumann KMS-105 in and . . . wow! The first thing I noticed is how much more warmth it picks up in my voice. Then I noticed that I didn't have to crowd the mic so much and that I could still get a great sound by adding some distance from the mic. If I can relate it to photography, this mic has a greater depth of field and the sound stays focused.
It is much more sensitive than the SM-58 I've been using and I can see that it will reveal every one of my vocal errors, but that's a good thing. Now I am aware of my speakers' little flaws too. No doubt about it, I'm going to have to address everything in the chain.
Regards,
Mike Gilles
 
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