Ever hear Ambent and Jazz fused? - my other side...

[Llarion]

Hi again!

For those of you that stumbled onto my Smooth Jazz thread, I thank you kindly. So, you wanna hear my other side?

Head on over to www.artistlaunch.com/llarion and check out The Journey and The Light Of Valhalla... These are my experiments in fusing the moody, ethereal constructs common to the Ambient realm with Jazz chord theory and more obscure harmonic and melodic components.

Close your eyes and enjoy.

Both of these pieces are for a concept CD called Heaven that I'm preparing for my 2nd release (my first release, "a dichotomy of silence", that features Dewpoint from the other thread is due later this fall), probably about at the new year. It is my musical interpretation of the soul's journey through death, the uncertainties and fears of what will come, through final redemption.

Would love to hear your thoughts!

For you tech wonks, both pieces were recorded on a Roland VS-880EX, using a Korg Triton 61. The Journey also has a bass and piano sound from my RD-500. The Light Of Valhalla's drums are Boss DR-660, and the bass is again the RD-500. I do no sequencing at all outside of the drum computer, I play everything track by track in realtime.

Thanks!

Phil "Llarion: The Jazzinator" Traynor
www.llarion.com
- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons; for you are crunchy and go well with ketchup.

 

[King Elvis]

Very Nice!!!
I am listening to The Journey and this is fantastic...I really like ambient music because it is so relaxing and I will put this up there with the best!! You did this on an 880EX??? I use one and I dont think I could ever be this good with it...A good clean mix...
Top Notch all the way!!

 

[boydrj]

I really like the ambiance of this tune. Very nicely constructed. Kind of reminds me a bit of a band called Talk Talk which released a few albums later in their career with this type of quality to them (Laughing Stock and a few others).

Very nicely done. I could totally "float away" to this ...

Keep up the good work!

 

[Llarion]

Why thank you!

Yep, I did that on an 880-EX. It got where I knew that thing like the inside of my mouth. But if I can do it, so can you. My secret is that I don't to final mastering on the desk. I do a final mixdown to stereo, then dump to CD and pull it into the PC for mastering.

The Journey is actually only 6 tracks, stereo drums, stereo synth, a trak for the bassline, and a trck for the melody. It went like buttah, only took me about 2 hours to record. (another 3 to master, but that's another show...)

I upgraded to a Korg D1600 a few months back. Sold the VS with the CD-RW, 2 years old, for $850. Not too shabby considering a new 8 track is less than that...

 

[Fed]

this is good ... do you make a living with your music, if you are not you should ... this is top notch ... I mean for the style it doesn't get any better IMHO ... though we haven't hear you sing yet ...

Listening to Jorney like I said very good ... I can't give you structural analisys ... but I like it ... something wrong with the doctrine of this tune though ...

"The Light Of Valhalla " same good stuff ... I have to admit both tunes kind of get on my nerves .. LOL ... they are so smoooooth ... I personaly just can't think of a setting I would listen to this type of music and I can't strum along ether ... ... I guess I need more recognizable melody like in Dewpoint ...

anyway very good recording and musicianship ... IMHO
cheers

 

[Fed]

Oh ye I just wanted to say, I'm having a blast reading your comments on others peoples stuff ... I have a lot of respect for educated musicians because I'm maried to one ...

 

[Lt. Bob]

Well I like this a lot. It's bedtime but I'm gonna have to come back and listen to the rest of your stuff. Very nice. I don't have much to say about the mix....it's pretty good....I didn't care for the kick drum on Journey.....it had too much of that hip-hop overly big sound to it.......but that's about all that bothered me.

 

[Llarion]

this is good ... do you make a living with your music, if you are not you should ... this is top notch ... I mean for the style it doesn't get any better IMHO ... though we haven't hear you sing yet ...

Listening to Jorney like I said very good ... I can't give you structural analisys ... but I like it ... something wrong with the doctrine of this tune though ...

"The Light Of Valhalla " same good stuff ... I have to admit both tunes kind of get on my nerves .. LOL ... they are so smoooooth ... I personaly just can't think of a setting I would listen to this type of music and I can't strum along ether ... ... I guess I need more recognizable melody like in Dewpoint ...

anyway very good recording and musicianship ... IMHO
cheers

Thanks for having nice things to say, despite not liking the genre... That's hard for a lot of people to do. I can certainly understand it, though, and that's the answer to your question, really. No, I don't make my living t it, though I wish I could. Unfortunately, my passion has chosen to express itself in what is hopelessly a "niche" genre. So, I'll never have broad mainstream appeal. Plus, the music biz is so tough anyway; imagine how many thousands of indies there are that COMPLETELY blow me away, but aren't famous because perhaps they don't look like Britney Spears or Marc Anthony...

OK, you have my curiosity piqued; what do you mean by the "doctrine" of the song? Is there some intrinsic message you're picking up from it that I may be unintentionally sending? Or, perhaps does it lack a particular statement somewhere?

As far as thinking of a settign where you'd listen to this music; I suggest "in the Jacuzzi, with somebody cute..."

Oh, and thanks for your comments re: my reviewing. I've had quite a bit of experience at it, actually; I used to be one of the resident reviewers on the MP3.com Critic's Corner, before the MP3 boards went to heck, and I'm currently on staff at Artistlaunch as a reviewer. I was also the music editor for the now-defunct Stash magazine, a glossy "scene mag" here in the Tampa Bay area... I may not be the sharpest or fastest player going, but I think I do have a fairly honed ear, especially fopr production, and I like to help people out wherever I can. You'll find that, even if I am critical of a piece, it will always be in the politest, most constructive way possible.

Lt. Bob, thanks very much for your comments! People are definitely split on the drums on that one; I was just taken by the lopey groove and went with it.

 

[Fed]

As far as thinking of a settign where you'd listen to this music; I suggest "in the Jacuzzi, with somebody cute..."

I see ... I guess I'll tell my wife we need Jacuzzi ... I got some music to listen to ... I don't think she will object ...

as for the doctrine it's kind of inside joke I guess ... though I'm the only one in on it right now ... ... but I actualy read your synopsis on the song and it alludes to spiritual expirience ... there are some Christians on this board of whitch I'm one ... so the things in synopsis dodn't realy line up with what the Bible teaches ... ... so I couldn't resist and put that line in my comment ... but admitedly it was pretty clumsy as most my comments are ...

Most (or all as far as I know) people on this forum leave their "doctrine" differences at the cave ... ... so this place is pretty peaceful in that regard ... I apologize for bringing this up ...


anyway your reviews are somewhat buttered up I guess ... even on weaker submissions but they are very educational, to me anyway ... and the fact that you have no other agenda (to my knowledge) but to review the song makes even more valuble ... I truly hope you don't get burned ... and stick around ... and "raise the level of ignorance" around here ... another inside one ...

cheers

 

[flash2ace]

this stuff is so good that i cant stop listening to it. you are as good as any signed jazz act ive ever heard, i listen to alot of jazz and i play jazz alot or at least i try to play jazz.your stuff is excellent and the production on it is tottally pro. i wish my stuff could sound 1/4 as good as this. i am so impressed. phil keagy used to be my favorite jazz artist but you are quickly changin that. i love this stuff im gonna start practicing more on jazz and drop some of my rock stuff. thanks for sharing this with me this is very relaxing and now im gonna go to bed and fall to sleep to it. awesome stuff. tim pate

 

[Llarion]

I see ... I guess I'll tell my wife we need Jacuzzi ... I got some music to listen to ... I don't think she will object ...

as for the doctrine it's kind of inside joke I guess ... though I'm the only one in on it right now ... ... but I actualy read your synopsis on the song and it alludes to spiritual expirience ... there are some Christians on this board of whitch I'm one ... so the things in synopsis dodn't realy line up with what the Bible teaches ... ... so I couldn't resist and put that line in my comment ... but admitedly it was pretty clumsy as most my comments are ...

Most (or all as far as I know) people on this forum leave their "doctrine" differences at the cave ... ... so this place is pretty peaceful in that regard ... I apologize for bringing this up ...


anyway your reviews are somewhat buttered up I guess ... even on weaker submissions but they are very educational, to me anyway ... and the fact that you have no other agenda (to my knowledge) but to review the song makes even more valuble ... I truly hope you don't get burned ... and stick around ... and "raise the level of ignorance" around here ... another inside one ...

cheers

Ahhhhh, yes. Well, there is indeed a spirituality component to the music, and while I'm also Christian, It is probably wisest to leave those discussions at the door, since the spiritual implication of the series I'm doing transcends my humble beliefs into things I don't understand.... But that's another show... Certainly, no apology necessary.

Reviews - I don't know if I'd call them "buttered up", exactly... I'm not being falsely positive, just accentuating the good parts I hear, and being as constrictive as I can about the not-so-good. It's much easier for people to accept criticism when it's presented in such a way that it is not threatening, ya know? And that is my only agenda, to be helpful, and maybe add a little to the considerable knowledge and experience base here. I imagien that once I'm beter established and have built some credibility, then I'll be able to safely be more in depth with criticism. For now, I'm still a newbie.

And don't worry, I won't get burned - I'm an 11 year veteran of the AcetyleneWars™, I can flame with the best of them. There just never seems to be the need around here, that's why I like it so much. Flame wars are sooo tiring...

Flash2ace - Holy freaking cow, man... I'm humbled. Thank you so much. You know, once Jimi Hanricks recived some award for performer of the year or something, and he was asked: "So, how does it feel to be the best guitar player in the world?" and Jimi said "I'm not even the best guitar player in the room, man, Phil Keaggy is here... " That you would even compare me to anyone in this league is a great honor. You made my week, man...

I so wish my proxy weren't screwed down so tight at work, I can only listen to people's stuff at night at home!

 

[AlChuck]

Jazz??? Oh pleeeeeeze...

OK, pet peeve time... why do people apply the label "jazz" to this kind of stuff? It's about as far from jazz as you can get.

First of all, it's rhythmically soft... at least so called "smooth jazz" usually has some sort of groove going on, whereas this piece just bubbles along (I guess that's the "ambient" part). That is, it swings (or grooves) not.

Second, I detected not a single instant of improvisation anywhere in the tune.

Granted, genre labels are very fuzzy around the edges and often hard to apply even when clumped with other styles in a fused name such as "jazz rock" or "country ambient house jungle." But to me to use the word "jazz" to describe this is ill-advised.

End of rant.

That said, the production was very good overall, nice balance of sounds. The composition itself didn't do much for me, the dom #9 chord that resolves back to the -- um -- "head" -- seems just tacked on to have a resolution; it seems forced, unnatural. There seemed to be some odd meter things happening once or twice that might have been cool if there were a pulse happening so that the change was detectable; in these rhythmic surroundings, it almost sounds more like a mistake. I think you should play with those patches a bit more -- the whispery voicelike pad is somewhat trite-sounding.

 

[Llarion]

Well, I can certainly appreciate that...

...And to an extent, I even agree. Personally, I consider this really to be more of an Ambient piece, with some Smooth Jazz chord theory thrown in to make it a little more accessible and have a richer tonal color than some of the more 'wandering' and sparse Ambient stuff you find out there. Not a 50/50 Ambient/Jazz mix, but probably 75/25.

It most certainly doesn't "swing", nor does it have the groove of Smooth Jazz, but you're right in the notion that the line does indeed blur noticeably within genres, as people who think they have a unique sound try to find a unique label for it. I suppose I'm as guilty of that as the next guy, which is both ironic and mildly hypocritical, because people who blend genre names like you mentioned, to justify a song, usually jar my teeth.

As to that resolution, actually, it's a b9, I don't use #9ths except when playing "legitimate" Jazz, or Steely Dan. (been a long time since my BeBop days though). What would you have done there instead to get "home" without disrupting the, uh, ambience? I ask that not sarcastically, but legitimately, because if you know of better ways to resolve progressions than what I'm doing, I'd love to expand my vocabulary. You sound like a theory junkie, so you've probably noticed that I'm very fond of tritone substitution-based chromatic planing, especially downward. Can you give me some other things to try out? I'd love to incorporate some new ideas into my next compositions, because frankly, I'm in a rut, my usual tools are feeling a little stale to me.

Thanks for the comments!

 

[AlChuck]

Hey Llarion,

Thanks for such a nice measured reply! I was in one of my bad moods this morning when I wrote, and I tend to get a little prickly and pedantic when I'm like that and sometimes it triggers -- uh -- dislike? -- and I find that I've started a pissing contest or something...

Personally, I consider this really to be more of an Ambient piece, with some Smooth Jazz chord theory thrown in to make it a little more accessible and have a richer tonal color than some of the more 'wandering' and sparse Ambient stuff you find out there. Not a 50/50 Ambient/Jazz mix, but probably 75/25.

The chord theory stuff is not something I would label as emblematic of "jazz" per se. It's really just ordinary Western music theory as applied by Tin Pan Alley songwriters, composers, and, yes, jazz players too. OK, so maybe extending chords beyond triads and seventh chords might be an element of jazz too, like rhythm and improv... but I don't think of that as really so jazzlike on its own.

I suppose I'm as guilty of that as the next guy, which is both ironic and mildly hypocritical, because people who blend genre names like you mentioned, to justify a song, usually jar my teeth.

LOL... I do it too... I always say I play "rock guitar with some jazz flavor" or some such phrase.

As to that resolution, actually, it's a b9, I don't use #9ths except when playing "legitimate" Jazz, or Steely Dan. (been a long time since my BeBop days though). What would you have done there instead to get "home" without disrupting the, uh, ambience? I ask that not sarcastically, but legitimately, because if you know of better ways to resolve progressions than what I'm doing, I'd love to expand my vocabulary. You sound like a theory junkie, so you've probably noticed that I'm very fond of tritone substitution-based chromatic planing, especially downward. Can you give me some other things to try out? I'd love to incorporate some new ideas into my next compositions, because frankly, I'm in a rut, my usual tools are feeling a little stale to me.

Really? Could've sworn I heard that "Jimi Hendrix chord" there...

Actually, I'm a bad one to ask, at least right now. My writing is very sporadic, untutored, and undisciplined. I usually stumble on something (eventually) when I find a nugget that sets me off to write something, and I honestly don't have any tried and true methodology. I do find I'll try certain obvious things -- go to the relative minor, etc. -- but they almost always don't work, and I usually find what does by pure accident. I'm actually not (yet) really much of a theory head, and I wonder, if I was more knowledgeable and aware of theoretical concepts if I would find that there was something I was doing that I could state?

As it turns out, I'm in the middle of a very intense period of woodshedding and learning, and I'm working hard on the basic stuff that I leapfrogged over (or snuck around, more accurately) in my early years, typical rock guitar player that I am. I'm doing some ear training and sight singing/reading work, and that sort of thing, and I'm gradually becoming more analytically aware. So next time I write something, I probably will be more alert to what I'm actually doing.

There are a couple of things I tend to do automatically -- I seem to love a shift of a minor third, like Gm7 -> Bbm7, and I like sequences of dom 7 chords that go back and forth a whole step, like G7 - F7. I seem to like to find uses for sus4ths, especially in cadences.

I bought a book by Leni Stern called Composing & Compositions that I keep meaning to work through some day, it's full of ideas. See http://www.musicbooksplus.com/books/cpp36.htm

Someday I hope to take some correspondence lessons with Charlie Banacos after I get the fundamentals more comfortably under my belt. I've often heard players/composers I admire (the afore-mentioned Leni Stern, for one, as a matter of fact) say that they studied with him for a while. See http://www.charliebanacos.com/

There are also a couple of brilliant guys at the school where I'm studying now (the Jazzschool in Berkeley, CA) from whom I will be taking composition classes in the coming months, most notably Wayne Wallace. There's a decent bio at
http://www.oyeproductions.com/bio/w_wallace.htm and some sample stuff at http://www.behindthebeat.net/genre.asp?g=79&m=24

This is fun... I'll keep you in mind as I sail through these waters and let you know what I find...

-AlChuck

 

[sins tailor]

wow

way to go phil..........all these compliments ...maybe i should drop by here more often i might get a few myself...............

 

[Llarion]

Hey Llarion,

Thanks for such a nice measured reply! I was in one of my bad moods this morning when I wrote, and I tend to get a little prickly and pedantic when I'm like that and sometimes it triggers -- uh -- dislike? -- and I find that I've started a pissing contest or something...

Aww, shucks, twern't nuthin'... If I can't TAKE criticism, I'm certainly not qualified to dish it, now am I..

The chord theory stuff is not something I would label as emblematic of "jazz" per se. It's really just ordinary Western music theory as applied by Tin Pan Alley songwriters, composers, and, yes, jazz players too. OK, so maybe extending chords beyond triads and seventh chords might be an element of jazz too, like rhythm and improv... but I don't think of that as really so jazzlike on its own.

You make an interesting point. I certainly can't dispute it, but I can submit to you that it is somewhat subjective. Much like some people's perception of "what rawks"...

Really? Could've sworn I heard that "Jimi Hendrix chord" there...

Nope, never use em. Truth be told, I can never figure out how to voice them. Since I'm fond of lower-voiced tone clusters, a #9 chord voiced tight puts both thirds together, which invariably sounds like mud. I need practice.

As it turns out, I'm in the middle of a very intense period of woodshedding and learning, and I'm working hard on the basic stuff that I leapfrogged over (or snuck around, more accurately) in my early years, typical rock guitar player that I am.

Amen, bruthah. I did the same thing, only worse, because I went to JAZZ! Incidentally, that's why you didn't hear any improvisation, because by and large, I'm a shitty soloist. So, if I need good solo work, I hire it out if I can. *blush*

I'm doing some ear training and sight singing/reading work, and that sort of thing, and I'm gradually becoming more analytically aware. So next time I write something, I probably will be more alert to what I'm actually doing.

One of the good things about NOT being a theory wonk is that you don't know when you're braking rules, if it sounds good, it flies. Be cautious as you acquire more theory knowledge that it doesn't bind you to the rules compositionally. I find this happening to me sometimes.

There are a couple of things I tend to do automatically -- I seem to love a shift of a minor third, like Gm7 -> Bbm7, and I like sequences of dom 7 chords that go back and forth a whole step, like G7 - F7. I seem to like to find uses for sus4ths, especially in cadences.

Hmm, I like the way that minor 3rd shift sounds. The dom7 shift thing is vintage bluesy. I don't tend to write bluesy, though it's an effective device...

This is fun... I'll keep you in mind as I sail through these waters and let you know what I find...

-AlChuck

[/b]

Indeed so!

Sins,

Welcome to the mayhem! I'm diggin this place!!! it's like Critic's Corner used to be, only better. and without the download whore-swapping...

 

[participant]

uh....

...with all this talk of 9ths (and Steely Dan ), I feel fully unqualified to offer any critique...

Listened to "Valhalla"... Considering Alchuck's rant-page , it's possible you saw my response to (believe it was ChuckU's?) song... where it was said (jeez, trying to put this delicately ) that synth-based quote-unquote "jazz" wasn't cool... and that his song had the required upright bass, and sizzly, snappy drums we all expect from real jazz ...

This was a knee-jerk reaction to my many searches for the old-style, upright-bass/snappy drums stuff on MP3.com... only to come up with some synth-genius' "computer masterpieces" each time (what is the term for that? popcorn jazz? I love that ol' stuff Anyone reccomend artists in that style? Like the stuff in the movie "That thing You Do"...)

That said... Valhalla is much better than what I've heard in this style... and it would sound very good in an upscale Department store's perfume section, or something (Dillard's, Nordstrom, etc...)

--

It's cool to have someone like yourself with the critiquing experience. I cut my teeth (in a much less-significant way ) on Garageband.com for 2 years... listening to over 800 songs, and giving long-winded replys that most people liked... interestingly enough I found THIS bbs while looking at garageband.com's BBS... probably a message from KRAMER, or someone else, that led me here

Hopefully you'll stay here, Llarion, long after your stuff is sent to market-- and someday before the moon splits in half and California falls into the ocean, you may hear one of my derivitive, alt-rock pieces of crap

Thanks for the listen.


Chad

 

[Llarion]

Participant;

Short response now, longer one later (no time)

Great "old school" jazz on MP3.com:

George Kahn
Dean Krippaehne

GO look them up, you won't be disappointed!

 

[B.SABBATH]

Who gives a f#%k about the genre, this jam has a sweet mood to it..


nice job!

 

[Meshuggah]

starts out - = > a m b i e n t < = -

ends the same way...

Nice music to relalalax to.