Ethan I have a question...

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ethan - i have a big question for you. so from yours and other peoples help here, ive decided what i want to do for my small mixing room as far as fiberglass. i want to put 2 inch thick 703 in the walls and ceiling, and 4 inch thick 705-FRK in the corners for bass traps. now here is my problem, i can not find a supplier of owens corning anywhere near me at all.

however, i found a home depot in the LA area that said they have two inch thick johns manville rigid fiberglass. now assuming that they have it available in 6 pounds per cubic foot, would that mean that this would be comparable to 2 inch thick 705? i would think yes, just making sure. now if that is a yes, i have a couple of questions.

1. is there any disadvantage to using 6 pcf for wall/ceiling absorption instead of 3 pcf? im just trying to work with worst case scenario here, and if they possibly only have 2 inch thick 6 pcf, i would just get a lot of that and use it in place of the 703, and then stack it to make 4 inch panels for the corners and use it in place of the 705.

2. i know johns manville has FSK, the equivalent to FRK, for some of their stuff, but in case home depot doesnt have that for whatever specific type they have, just standard without the foil paper would still work well, correct? well enough so that i should still get it if i have the chance to get this, and not waste more time just trying to find stuff with foil paper?
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
I just question where the truth REALLY resides.

Yea, you may have experience at this stuff, but let me tell you something. From what I've read in the last few months, it APPEARS even long term acoustical analysis STILL hasn't proved what the hell is going on with absorption.

I've reached the conclusion that the science of acoustics really hasn't proved all that much since Sabine. I think they are still scatching their head about a lot of stuff that I've been reading about since the 80's!

Again, I don't know about you, but I don't buy this crap of science changing on a whim. EITHER it WORKS OR IT FUCKING DOESN"T!!

CRAP. That did it. I was so mad I burned the book. Talk about pissed off? To this day, I now don't believe a fucking word about this stuff.

That is why I opened my mouth cause basically, I don't even believe you or anyone else anymore.
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I, too, have often been frustrated by the fact that as science advances, things that I once thought were true are suddenly called into question. It's a maddening phenomenon and I have searched the four corners of the globe for the demon behind it. Thank you, fitZ, for revealing that Ethan has been behind this conspiracy all along. The Earth is round? Damn Ethan! There are things smaller than atoms? Fie on Ethan, I say! Not everything is known about accoustics when I am trying to build the perfect studio? Ah, of course! It's Ethan again.

Seriously, though, fitZ, I DO appreciate your frustration with accoustics. But should that mean that Ethan can't offer advice? If so, then it also means that no one can offer advice on accoustics because, as you said yourself, the jury's still out on a lot of it. As far as Ethan goes, I'm just terribly grateful that a guy who sells his own bass traps is still willing to offer money-saving advice to do-it-yourselfers like me. If I were him, I think my standard answer to every question would be "Go to RealTraps.com."

Thanks for sharing the fruits of your experience here in the forum, Ethan. (But don't ask me to forgive you for quantum theory!)
 
HapiCmpur said:
Seriously, though, fitZ, I DO appreciate your frustration with accoustics. But should that mean that Ethan can't offer advice? If so, then it also means that no one can offer advice on accoustics because, as you said yourself, the jury's still out on a lot of it. As far as Ethan goes, I'm just terribly grateful that a guy who sells his own bass traps is still willing to offer money-saving advice to do-it-yourselfers like me. If I were him, I think my standard answer to every question would be "Go to RealTraps.com."

Thanks for sharing the fruits of your experience here in the forum, Ethan. (But don't ask me to forgive you for quantum theory!)
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I agree 110%. I consider it a privilege and a godsend to be able to pick the brain of someone so much more experienced than myself. I don't think there's very many people out there who would offer such extensive DIY advice to people when their very own business is in the same field. I applaud Ethan for doing so, and without his generosity, I would be vastly further behind in my knowledge.

I also thank you, Ethan. You have undoubtedly saved me hundreds of dollars and enriched my knowledge of acoustics tremendously.

I understand the frustration of some of the incongruities of acoustics, but I don't necessarily think that should make someone hostile toward anyone else. For perfect stereo imaging, your monitors should be equidistant from both the side walls. But placing the listening position in the absolute center of the room cancels out some bass frequencies due to destructive interference. So what do you do? Make up your own mind. They don't quite have the perfect answer for this yet. Some prefer to be perfectly symmetrical, others choose to offset the listening position by a few inches.

The fact that we don't have perfectly clear cut answers to every single question on acoustics doesn't have to paralyze us into inaction. There are still things we don't understand about physics, but that doesn't stop us from living and moving around and relying on what we do know.

We know enough about acoustics to treat a room and have it sound great. Either be happy with that and go on making your music and treating your rooms, or get into the acoustics field and figure it out for yourself. But Ethan doesn't really deserve to have animosity directed toward him simply because he tries to help.
 
stayouttamalibu said:
ethan - i have a big question for you. so from yours and other peoples help here, ive decided what i want to do for my small mixing room as far as fiberglass. i want to put 2 inch thick 703 in the walls and ceiling, and 4 inch thick 705-FRK in the corners for bass traps. now here is my problem, i can not find a supplier of owens corning anywhere near me at all.

however, i found a home depot in the LA area that said they have two inch thick johns manville rigid fiberglass. now assuming that they have it available in 6 pounds per cubic foot, would that mean that this would be comparable to 2 inch thick 705? i would think yes, just making sure. now if that is a yes, i have a couple of questions.

1. is there any disadvantage to using 6 pcf for wall/ceiling absorption instead of 3 pcf? im just trying to work with worst case scenario here, and if they possibly only have 2 inch thick 6 pcf, i would just get a lot of that and use it in place of the 703, and then stack it to make 4 inch panels for the corners and use it in place of the 705.

2. i know johns manville has FSK, the equivalent to FRK, for some of their stuff, but in case home depot doesnt have that for whatever specific type they have, just standard without the foil paper would still work well, correct? well enough so that i should still get it if i have the chance to get this, and not waste more time just trying to find stuff with foil paper?
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I think I know what Ethan will say about some of this, so I'll try to save him some typing.

The specific Johns Manville rigid fiberglass that they make for acoustical purposes is called Spin-Glas board. I would check with the Home Depot guys and see if that's what they have, and if it isn't I'd ask them if they have any information on the acoustic properties of what they do have. Generally, if it's good for acoustics they'll have some info stating it is. It's most likely fine even if it doesn't have any acoustic info, but it's worth checking on.

1. The 6 pcf board will absorb a bit better at lower frequencies due to it's density, but it's more crucial for the corner bass traps. If they don't have 3 pcf, the 6pcf will work just fine on the walls. Two 2" sheets sandwiched to make four inches will work just as well as one four inch sheet.

2. For wall panels you don't want the foil facing as it reflects highs. The plain would be better for that. For bass traps, having four inches of fiberglass with one foil or paper side facing into the room helps a bit because the paper or foil vibrates with the bass frequencies and then the fiberglass absorbs those vibrations. It just absorbs a bit more energy. But you don't want to have foil on both sides of the bass trap, just the one side facing into the room. But if you only have plain, use it. It's not a huge difference anyway.
 
stayouttamalibu said:
i found a home depot in the LA area that said they have two inch thick johns manville rigid fiberglass. now assuming that they have it available in 6 pounds per cubic foot, would that mean that this would be comparable to 2 inch thick 705? i would think yes, just making sure.
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Here's a website that might be useful once you find out exactly what product your local Home Depot is offering: http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm
 
You know what...

RICK FITZPATRICK said:
I'm sorry if my use of Acoustics 101 terms is hard to comprehend.
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I like your advice, when you are not being prick-like.

What I don't understand is why you over-complicate every response. You act like all these people here asking for help are designing a million dollar studio. Mostly it seems like people in their bedroom trying to tack carpet squares on the wall to make their recording of "Smoke on the Water" sound better.

I understand this is a complicated subject, but please, please offer some real world advice every so often.

Thanks
 
Mali,

> would that mean that this would be comparable to 2 inch thick 705? <

Yes.

> is there any disadvantage to using 6 pcf for wall/ceiling absorption instead of 3 pcf? <

Some people say the slightly higher reflectivity of 6 pound rigid fiberglass makes it less effective at mid and high frequencies. But that's what I have in my home studio and it works great, plus a good friend of mine who is a pro studio designer also uses 6 pcf everywhere.

> in case home depot doesnt have that for whatever specific type they have, just standard without the foil paper would still work well, correct? <

Yeah, that's okay, especially if it's at least four inches thick. The thicker the material, the less important the density and the FRK facing become.

--Ethan
 
Folks,

> Thanks for sharing the fruits of your experience here in the forum, Ethan. <

Glad to, and thanks for your comments and Hapi's too.

Rick, I sent you an email yesterday. If you never got it, send me an email from either of my web sites and I'll re-send it in reply.

--Ethan
 
Ethan, I replied yesterday.

Members of this forum. Please accept my apology for dragging Ethans dispute with other members of the acoustics interest community, in to this thread. It was NOT my intention to imply ANYTHING, other than trying to explain exactly why I was responding to Ethans reply as I did. Nothing more. This dispute is his business and I should have used better judgement. I am truely sorry for any implication of impropriety on Ethans behalf as this is NOT a court of public opinion. Personally, because this fued is publicly displayed, and I visit the places where it has taken place, I was aware of it, and already posted a link to one episode 2 or 3 months ago, of which Ethan responded to my satisfaction. From this point on, I will never post anything in this regard. However, let me say this. Because this community has an interest in ANYTHING that has an influence on purchasing products that are used in the construction and treatment of your rooms, I feel abliged to pass on any relevant information I deem fit that may alter your purchasing decisions, be it comparisons of treatment products, equipment, construction materials and techniques or whatever. But I will NEVER again link you to items that are disscussions of OPINION, arbitrary statements, gossip, disputes, apparent false advertising, or anyathing of that nature. But I WILL pass on relevant tests, testing proceedures, tested product data, tested material comparisons, and other QUALIFIED and PUBLISHED data.
Again, I sincerely am sorry for causing ETHAN ANY mental discomfort, embarrassment, loss of credibility or sales, or anything that results in peoples change in trust. That was NOT my intention. Been there, done that. The net speaks for itself, and I trust we are adults here. In that regard, follow your own intuition and interest in these endeavors. I too shall, however, from now on I'll keep my opinion to myself unless addressed by official publication.
Thanks for your attention :)
Sincerely, Rick Fitzpatrick
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
Because this community has an interest in ANYTHING that has an influence on purchasing products that are used in the construction and treatment of your rooms, I feel abliged to pass on any relevant information I deem fit that may alter your purchasing decisions, be it comparisons of treatment products, equipment, construction materials and techniques or whatever.

I WILL pass on relevant tests, testing proceedures, tested product data, tested material comparisons, and other QUALIFIED and PUBLISHED data.
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That sounds good to me. Thanks, Rick.
 
Rick,

Thanks.

> Ethan, I replied yesterday. <

I never got it. Did you send to the address I included at the beginning of my email to you? I have no idea what HR has on file for my email address, but I'm 99.9% sure it's not correct.

> But I WILL pass on relevant tests, testing proceedures, tested product data, tested material comparisons, and other QUALIFIED and PUBLISHED data. <

Without wanting to minimize the "thanks" above, which is sincere, please understand that just because someone claims a comparison is qualified is no assurance it really is. Once someone reveals their obvious bias, you can pretty well dismiss anything else they have to say. If you get my drift...

--Ethan
 
Hello Ethan, I sent it to the addy you gave me. I sent it a second time this morning.

please understand that just because someone claims a comparison is qualified is no assurance it really is. Once someone reveals their obvious bias, you can pretty well dismiss anything else they have to say. If you get my drift...
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I do understand your "drift", and I will never go that route again. BTW, as far as "qualified", I would only relate disinterested 3rd party type. You know. Consumer type stuff. Actually, at this point, I don't think there is much more to say on my part. At LEAST until I get my own ETF software and some 703. Then I will do what I feel is best for myself only.
And thanks for the phone call Ethan. I think talking personally is much more enlightening than a forum could ever be. I'm sure you know what I mean. I look forward to reading more of your insight and experience in this shared interest.
fitZ
 
ethan - thank you again for your continued help. i would think you would get tired of telling different people the same things all the time :)

anyways, it turned out that the people at the home depot i talked to didnt know what they were talking about and they didnt have anything comparable. however, after weeks of searching, i stumbled across a place in the LA area that sells owens corning 700 series! so to anyone in southern california who needs it, here is the info for this supplier -

CWCI
749 S. Ninth Ave
City of Industry, CA 91745
626-369-4424

they had two inch thick 703 and unfaced 705, so i got them both and i will be stacking the 705 to make four inch thick panels. thanks to everyone for your help.
 
Rick,

> And thanks for the phone call Ethan. I think talking personally is much more enlightening than a forum could ever be. <

Yes, and that's one of the perks of running a business like mine - getting to talk in person to people I've "met" online. Friday a customer in New Zealand called me after we'd emailed back and forth a dozen times. It's always great to be able to attach a voice, if not a face, to a 'net pal.

--Ethan
 
Mal,

> i would think you would get tired of telling different people the same things all the time :) <

I surely do get tired of it, but I continue anyway because the questions are important.

--Ethan
 
Ethan Winer said:
Mal,

> i would think you would get tired of telling different people the same things all the time :) <

I surely do get tired of it, but I continue anyway because the questions are important.

--Ethan
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That's why we love ya, Ethan. Although I personally try to read as much as I can of your articles so hopefully I don't have to ask you things I can find out on my own. I don't think I've actually asked you a question in a couple weeks because between the articles and things I've asked before, I pretty much know what to do to my room.

Not saying I'll never have any more questions, though. I don't want to close that door. :D
 
MR,

> I don't think I've actually asked you a question in a couple weeks <

Not only that, I've seen you give some very good advice here yourself lately.

--Ethan
 
Ethan Winer said:
MR,

> I don't think I've actually asked you a question in a couple weeks <

Not only that, I've seen you give some very good advice here yourself lately.

--Ethan
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Why, thank you. I figured I'd save you some typing. :p It's all based on your information and my experiences in following it. I've seen how well it works, and I'm glad to help the next guy in line.
 
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