errrghhh!!!

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daveblue222

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why do i have to send my mixes to a mastering house?, surely this is what home recording is meant to be about (doing everything yourself).how do i master my track?, thats all i want to know. i want to learn how to do it. obviously this is done in cubase (or whatever program you are using) whats the difference between mastering and mixing? how do i double track?. my mind like a sponge at the moment and in my opinion i have learnt alot over the last couple of years, but i wish to learn more about the more advanced side of things rather than leaving it to someone else. obviously if the time ever came to produce a commercial CD of some kind I would leave it to the pros. but at the moment its a hobbie which i want to learn more about and appriciate as alot of musicians like myself tend to overlook.
 
daveblue222 said:
why do i have to send my mixes to a mastering house?, surely this is what home recording is meant to be about (doing everything yourself).how do i master my track?, thats all i want to know. i want to learn how to do it. obviously this is done in cubase (or whatever program you are using) whats the difference between mastering and mixing? how do i double track?. my mind like a sponge at the moment and in my opinion i have learnt alot over the last couple of years, but i wish to learn more about the more advanced side of things rather than leaving it to someone else. obviously if the time ever came to produce a commercial CD of some kind I would leave it to the pros. but at the moment its a hobbie which i want to learn more about and appriciate as alot of musicians like myself tend to overlook.

You obviously didn't read my post. Really, stop this cross posting nonsense, and don't open a new thread just because you didn't like the answer you got on the last one.
 
TelePaul said:
You obviously didn't read my post. Really, stop this cross posting nonsense, and don't open a new thread just because you didn't like the answer you got on the last one.

Actually, your post in the other thread sort of sucked!
 
Ford Van said:
Actually, your post in the other thread sort of sucked!


How so? Do enlighten me. It was kind of agreed upon that home recording and mastering at home are very different disciplines. Also, Ford Van, you are an asshole. There, I said it. Come rep me you sun'abitch. This was the conclusion that Farview offered up; I'm quoting him because he knows more than me and has worked on albums that I own.

Farview said:
You either have to have it professionally mastered or just ram it through a limiter and be done with it.

So, now we've run over the same thing 3 times in three different posts. Happy?
 
Greg_L said:
:D :D

Mastering fight!


Haha. Wasn't much of a fight; I won three times.

Your mixes are always good Greg, whats your take on this?
 
TelePaul said:
Haha. Wasn't much of a fight; I won three times.

Your mixes are always good Greg, whats your take on this?
Well thank you.

My mixes are just that - mixes. I do very little of what is normally considered 'mastering'. For one, I'm not that familiar with it. Secondly, I don't have any mastering equipment besides some free plug-ins. What I normally do is to make sure everything is as good as it can be square one. From the performance, to tracking, to processing, to mixing, I try to do everything right to the best of my ability. I think that if you take the time to get things right to begin with, the whole mixdown process is considerably easier which then makes the mastering process easier. For my stuff, I just very gently compress and limit the master tracks and very rarely do I need to add any additional EQ work. If I'm putting it on a CD for people to hear, I'll mixdown pretty low, and then just slap a mastering limiter on it since most people just want to hear 'volume'. Are there better ways to do it? Hell yes, but if my stuff sounds good to others its because I took the time to do the preliminary things as good as I could.
 
Ford Van said:
Actually, your post in the other thread sort of sucked!


Dude stop being an ass, if you want to pick on people pick on the ones that deserve it like Cannabis. I've rarely seen you give any helpful advice, you just put down people and act like a fucking prick. You were picked on a lot in school weren't you.
 
Greg_L said:
Well thank you.

My mixes are just that - mixes. I do very little of what is normally considered 'mastering'. For one, I'm not that familiar with it. Secondly, I don't have any mastering equipment besides some free plug-ins. What I normally do is to make sure everything is as good as it can be square one. From the performance, to tracking, to processing, to mixing, I try to do everything right to the best of my ability. I think that if you take the time to get things right to begin with, the whole mixdown process is considerably easier which then makes the mastering process easier. For my stuff, I just very gently compress and limit the master tracks and very rarely do I need to add any additional EQ work. If I'm putting it on a CD for people to hear, I'll mixdown pretty low, and then just slap a mastering limiter on it since most people just want to hear 'volume'. Are there better ways to do it? Hell yes, but if my stuff sounds good to others its because I took the time to do the preliminary things as good as I could.


Hallelujah!!! Praise Greg L!
 
Haha.

Actually I just practice and adhere to the basics. I've learned a TON since I joined this site and my mixes have gotten considerably better thanks to all the info in here and the good people that share that info.

So, to the original poster, just read, read, read, and practice. Don't get ahead of yourself and keep an open mind. If you don't know what 'double-tracking' is then you shouldn't even think about mastering. Take one step at a time and get to reading.
 
jonnyc said:
Dude stop being an ass, if you want to pick on people pick on the ones that deserve it like Cannabis. I've rarely seen you give any helpful advice, you just put down people and act like a fucking prick. You were picked on a lot in school weren't you.


Hahahah. Kudos JC.
 
daveblue222 said:
how do i master my track?, thats all i want to know.
Think about that question for a minute... Then understand that there's no valid answer.

1) LISTEN OBJECTIVELY.

2) Do what the mix tells you to do.

If you aren't hearing what the mix is telling you, you're either not listening or you're done.
 
TelePaul said:
How so? Do enlighten me. It was kind of agreed upon that home recording and mastering at home are very different disciplines. Also, Ford Van, you are an asshole. There, I said it. Come rep me you sun'abitch. This was the conclusion that Farview offered up; I'm quoting him because he knows more than me and has worked on albums that I own.



So, now we've run over the same thing 3 times in three different posts. Happy?

Hey, you know what? I have PAID fucking good money to "Mastering Engineers" who have major label credits who just ram the mix through a limiter.

Sometimes, that is all it needs! :rolleyes:

To anybody with half a brain, the original poster was OBVIOUSLY confusing "mastering" with "re-mixing" his songs.

Even if that was not so, to come back with the ol' "you gotta have a professional master it" leaves a VERY foul taste in my mouth and is the most cliche of responses one can give! :mad:

The whole fucking spirit of "home recording" is to do the whole fucking production at home!

I have mastered plenty of CD's! I have happy clients. They didn't have to pay a buttload of money for some ass with a "I am gear god" complex to get a bit more volume, and to correct a little bit of overall eq on the mix.

BY DEFINITION, all that mastering entails is "preparing a collection of songs for final duplication".

Depending upon the medium, expected results, and intended audience, this could entail MANY different things that should be done.

Indeed, one of the toughest parts of "mastering" for CD is achieving RMS levels with an overall "tone" that realizes the full potential of the product.

Now, if I am releasing my crap to an intended audience that is world wide, and will approach 100k in sales, I may want to pay Mr.Gear God Complex guy to apply his "magic" to my stuff. :rolleyes:

But few, if any around here are even going to sell 500 copies of this crap. And for those kinds of sales, it makes NO SENSE to take it to a "professional".

If you cannot offer up any "help" to somebody that is seeking help to "prepare my collection of material for final duplication", then maybe you shouldn't post at all, ESPECIALLY telling them to waste money they probably don't have on a fucking marginal "mastering engineer" who probably can't do much with the material to make it realize the potential the person WANTS it to have (most likely because it CAN'T because it is poorly written/played/recorded/mixed!!!)

Again, your original post was pretty crappy stuff in light of the above don't your think?

Have a good day fucking off dude! ;)
 
mixing = trees

mastering = forest

that's what it really comes down to, at the most basic level
 
daveblue222 said:
why do i have to send my mixes to a mastering house?
You don't *have to*, but if you have a good mix to finish, there's no comparison between DIY and a pro job.
daveblue222 said:
surely this is what home recording is meant to be about (doing everything yourself)
Sure. But when you add qualifying questions like you sis in your other thread wanting to know how to make it sound like the pros, that by definition is talking about crossing the line from amateur-level home recording to-level pro engineering. You can't reasonably expect to have it both ways.

With the right gear, the right technique, and the right ear, you can make a pro-sounding mix at home (location is irrelevant). But if you get it that good that far, outsourcing the mastering is the only way to go.
daveblue222 said:
how do i master my track?
...
whats the difference between mastering and mixing?
You really should be asking the second question first. right? ;) :) You have to know what mastering *is* before you can know "how* to di it. :)

The word "mastering" gets abused a lot in these forums. In reality, "mastering" is the process of prepping a final mix for printing to vinyl, tape or CD, and involves a whole lot more than what most folks call "mastering" in the DIY sense. I'll leave the "whole lot more" out for now, because what you are really asking is how to make your final mix louder.

Step one is to get your final mix final. The purpose of mastering, whether DIY or pro, is NOT to fix problems in the mix. It is only to put a final polish on the mix, adjust it to proper sonically fit in with other mixes - if you;re making an album, and then prepping that polished product for printing or burning. Do NOT just slap a mix together and then expect to use your "mastering tools" to fix the mix. In other words, do not mix in mastering.

Instead, mix your mix as if there were no such thing as mastering. Get it to sound as good or as close to finished quality as you can in the mixing. In other words when you put your tracks together and create your stereo mixown, if something sounds wrong in the form of instrument balance, frequency reproduction, etc. (don't worry about the overall level of the stereo mix just yet), don't say, "Well, OK, I'll fix that in mastering with my EQ or multiband compressor" or something like that. Instead, go back into the mix and fix it there in the tracks themselves and the mixing instructions and levels, and create a new stereo mixdown. Repeat that until you get it sounding as "right" as you can (but don't nibble at it forever either, it will *NEVER* be perfect, even for a pro.) Once you get the best mix you can reasonably expect, only *then* should you move it to the mastering stage.

At this point, you're asking about DIY "make it louder". First, how loud you can get it depends upon two things; first is the quality of the tracking and of the mixing that came before. If your tracking is amateur-quality and you mixing is amateur-quality, your mix is not going to necessarily handle the same boosts in volume that they can get at the pro level. If you do everything as well as possible before and up to that mastering point, however, you can resonably expect to come close.

Second, how loud you can get it depends greatly upon the genre and arrangement of the song itself. If you're going to compare your DIY stuff to the pros, you have to compare apples and apples. A White Stripes "Seven Nation Army" type of creation is going to have different sonic characteristics and measurement numbers than Zepplin's "Rock n' Roll", and the loudness numbers are not going to jive between the two.

This is where you have to - or at least *should* - trust your ears and not your meters or numbers. Every mix is going to have its own sweet spot in loudness, beyond which the mix will start falling apart. It's up to you how far you want to push the loudness past that breaking point (though I would recommentd not at all), but when you do you'll be sacrificing listening quality for pure loudness.

And LOUDNESS IS NOWHEE NEAR AS IMPORTANT AS MANY MAKE IT OUT TO BE. You don't need extreme loudness to compete. Extreme loudness beyond the mixes breaking point only serves to fatigue the listener that much faster. Do you want songs that they pull off their listening rotation faster because they are more fatiguing? That's your call.

So how to do you make it louder the right way? That's a whole 'nother post this long, so I'll leave that for others. But when you read their stuff, please keep this stuff in mind ;).

G.
 
It just cracks me up that whenever this comes up, nobody looks at the REALITY of audio production!

Reality 1 - Probably not so great of a tune. Maybe not so bad, but 80% of the stuff I hear here just is not very skillful songwriting/arrangements! I don't care how much you polish that turd of a song with high dollar mics and preamps, if it ain't arranged right, your mix will suck!

Reality 2 - When the most asked question is "What is the cheapest "good" *insert audio component here* I can get" at this site, you HAVE to expect that:

a - The person is very inexperienced
b - Has built a WHOLE STUDIO on a budget that is probably less than one beautiful AKG C-12!

On top of all of that, this person is going to probably play an Ibanez $300 special guitar through a POS Marshall Valvestate or Line6 crap thingy. The drums will have 2 year old heads, and a drummer that doesn't understand CONSISTENCY. The bass player will give you a blank stare if you ask if he has EVER set the intonation on his bass!

With all that marginal talent, this inexperienced engineer, who is probably the lame guitar player in the band, is going to wear two hats that he is FAR from being ready to wear, Producer and Engineer. Of course, the singer who couldn't carry a tune if he owned an ipod is going to have some "opinions" about the production that just HAVE to happen! If he don't get his way, he will of course refuse to sing. :rolleyes: (although, wouldn't that usually be doing us a big ass favor? :))

So that chinese mic to that dmp-1000PRO pre, to that $100 mudaudio soundcard, and butchered in Adobe Audition at "32 bits!". This is gonna be mixed in lame guitar players bedroom of course, usually using self powered monitors that only make marginal playback speakers for mp3's.

He is not going to use ANY reference material as he goes along.

He is probably not even going to reference song to song on this production!

So after ALL of that, you guys think that he should cough up like $500 to have a "pro" master it?

:rolleyes:

I tell you what, grab the best "free" limiter you can, and whip out the best eq you can get your hands on. Run that audio through the eq first, then the limiter. Try to achieve about a -13db RMS level and call it good. Try to make all the songs sound about the same in the eq department. Make all the songs about the same perceived level.

Fade them in, and fade them out as needed. Apply some 16 bit dither and save as 16 bit. Make an order for the songs and burn a freakin' disk. Go listen to it in your car, your home, on your friends Dell desktop with "Bose" surround speakers, and anywhere else you can think of. Listen for some "problems" in the eq and if need be, go back and "fix" them.

Burn your final master and start duplicating them and sell/give them away as quickly as possible.

Trust me, don't go wasting your money on a overpriced mastering engineer until you are SURE you can sell AT LEAST 3000 copies of your release! It simply is not worth it otherwise. Spend that money on some "promotion" to sell some more CD's.

If people like your music, they will like it whether you "master" it, or if some schuck with Wavelab and Waves Mastering Bundle, or Mr.Gear God Complex does it. It won't matter ONE BIT to your VERY SMALL LOCAL AUDIENCE WHO THE FUCK MASTERED YOUR CD!!! In a week, the buzz is usually gone, and the drummer is showing up late to every practice, the singer is looking for a new girlfriend to live with, and tips are down at your Pizza Hut delivery job! No need to worry about getting "the very best" out of your demo that was doomed when you first decided to do it yourself!

Your other route to the above is to go the FULL PRO route! If you fucking care ONE IOTA about your audio, you won't attempt to produce it yourself UNLESS you have a LOT of experience doing other people's music! You will pay for a "pro" to record/mix/master is! It ain't gonna be cheap going this route! Plan on spending at least $500 PER SONG for recording/mixing, and consider upping that to around $1500 per song if you really wanna rock! Then, you can really take advantage of Mr.Gear God Complex "mastering engineer" to the fullest! He will have SOMETHING WORTHWHILE to work with, and you can expect your finished product to SOMEWHAT compete with what you hear on the radio.

So, what I am saying is, if you are going to recommend a "mastering engineer", you better recommend they use a tracking and mixing engineer too! Otherwise, it is just silly talk!



Mastering is NOT rocket science by any means! Simply, they use some eq, some compression, some limiting, sometimes some expansion, stereo enhancing, etc...to "pretty up" the audio a bit. Seldom do they do very much! If they have to do more than around 2 or 3 db of eq, and more than around 4dB of gain reduction on the compressor, and maybe around 4-6db of gain reduction on the limiter, then the mix is fucked! The mix is probably fucked because the tracking was fucked! The tracking was fucked probably because the performance and source sounds were fucked!

It starts at the beginning folks. The VERY beginning. Most guys would be spending better money by buying new drums heads and tuning them, and intonating the guitars, and probably renting some QUALITY amps and mics more than some gear snob trying to polish the turd at the end!
 
As true as it is, reading that post made me feel kind of depressed. :(
 
danny.guitar said:
As true as it is, reading that post made me feel kind of depressed. :(

Well, it HAD to be said sooner or later eh? ;)

Music is a worthy pursuit for the young! I am not young anymore. After you fail, you become a "critic". :D
 
If having the "right gear", "right room", and "right experience" were a requirement to do stuff on your own, nobody here would be doing ANY recording!

The ONLY benefit most of your would gain from paying a "pro" to "master" your stuff would be that you could see the process, and see just how LITTLE they actually do to the audio in most cases. The whole experience would leave most of you thinking "why the hell did I just pay for this?"
 
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