Equipment advice for multitracking an opera demo

P

Peter Tourin

New member
Hi all -

I'm a first-timer here - hope I've hit the right group. I have a specific equipment question. I need to build a setup for putting together a demo for an opera. The opera has been written by hand in score form. It's now been entirely moved into Finale 2001, mostly in 4-part instrumental format (i.e. a score reduction). I now need to build a recording setup to move the existing parts from Finale to separate tracks. Then we'll need to add voices and start moving from the score reduction into individual instrument tracks. The end purpose is to have a playable demo of the opera.

Here's a rough guess about the track breakdown:

5 string tracks
5 woodwind tracks
5 brass tracks
10 other instrumental tracks
10 vocal tracks, including soloists and chorus tracks

I'm assuming that we'll record all the vocal tracks audio - don't yet know how we'll do chorus tracks (anyone have anything to say about recording single voice and chorusing the tracks?). I'm assuming that we'll leave the instrumental tracks midi and do a final mixdown to stereo sometime in the future, after all the tracks are in place.

I haven't looked at this field in over 5 years, so I'm way behind. I've played with some of the Windows products - SoundForge, Digital Orchestrator, Cakewalk, CoolEdit - so I have a bit of familiarity. But I'm not sure where to go from here. There's some budget, but it's limited, so I can't go crazy with equipment. There are several PC's around - the likely candidate is an 800 mhz machine unless this is too slow.

I'd be most interested to hear any discussion about how to move this project along. I guess the obvious topics are what recording software and where to go for good orchestral sounds for the midi tracks.

Thanks for your thoughts - Peter
 
You most certainly have set an impressive goal. Considering how far you have come I've no doubt you will reach it.

Computer
Working on the assumption that your 800MHz box is Intel based, and you need to mix 35 instruments, including your MIDI tracks, than you most likely do not have enough processor power.
Your PC should be a Pentium 4 or AthlonXP, 2.8MHz or higher (higher is of course better). You should have a minimum of 512MB RAM (1,024MB better), and 80GB of HDD, preferably on a seperate drive. I suggest WinXP (home or pro) for max driver compatibility. Estimated cost, provided you can't migrate any of your existing hardware, a minimum of $800.

Sound Card
There are two paths here. These are suggested based on your declartion of (relative) poverty. You might consider a Mackie Onyx 1640 w/Firewire option (approx. $1,700). This will allow you to capture 16 tracks (all with preamps and parametric EQ) to your PC at one time.

The other path would be something along the lines of the M-Audio 1010, 1010LT, Echo Layla 3G, etc.. These allow you to capture 8 to 10 tracks at a time, are much cheaper than the Mackie, but do not provide enough built in preamps. For example, a 1010LT (ten in (two w/preamps), ten out) approx. $250, four M-Audio DMP-3 dual channel preamps (at $150 each, $600 total), would bring your outlay for ten channels to $850 ($1,000 if you choose to bypass the 1010LT preamps and go with five DMP-3). This would allow you to capture all of your vocals at once.

Monitors
You must have decent monitors. The Wharfdale 8.2 are highly regarded and will set you back between $300 to $350. The member deepwater can be contacted regarding these.

Recording Software
Whoo boy. Manning loves PowerTracks, partially for it's MIDI functionality. I have been touting Mackie Tracktion because it is free through the end of the year. Personally, though I have no experience with them, I would look at SONAR, Cubase, or a similar high powered sequencing package. I would insure that whatever I got supported both VST and VSTi natively.

Orchestral sounds for MIDI tracks.
No idea! Sorry.

Microphones
You made no mention of whether or not you had microphones.

Going forward, your best responses will come from people who know what your budget and your needs are.

Luck, and hope you let us hear it when you are done.
 
Peter Tourin said:
I'm assuming that we'll leave the instrumental tracks midi and do a final mixdown to stereo sometime in the future, after all the tracks are in place.

There are several PC's around - the likely candidate is an 800 mhz machine unless this is too slow.

I'd be most interested to hear any discussion about how to move this project along. I guess the obvious topics are what recording software and where to go for good orchestral sounds for the midi tracks.
Click to expand...

Well Finale can do the orchestration for you and export MIDI to a sequencer. From that point, you're going to have to play with the MIDI a lot to get a realistic performance.

Your big problem is processing power--for realistic softsynth sounds, you need way more processing power than that, plus you have to buy the softsynths.

With a limited budget for a one-off project, you might consider farming out the MIDI once you finish the orchestration to somebody who does that sort of thing. Then get a stereo mix of the orchestra in return. From there, go to a studio to record the vocals.

As for the chorus, no you can't use a chorusing effect for a realistic sound, nor does doubling work particularly well. You really need a chorus.
 
Thanks for the quick reply - lots to think about!

> Working on the assumption that your 800MHz box is Intel based, and you need to mix 35 instruments, including your MIDI tracks, than you most likely do not have enough processor power. <

I'm thinking that the current machine will do for awhile, and we'll upgrade when necessary. It's got a clean install of Win2000 (could have done XP Pro, just happened to do Win2000), and a separate data HD - can't remember offhand if it's a 40 or an 80. I'm short on memory, but memory is cheap these days. So what I'm trying to build is a way the composer (friend of mine, doing him a favor because this is such a fun area to play in!) can kick his Finale tracks (however many he has at a given moment) into recording/mixing software, add voices, and at any time in the project, mix down to stereo.

> There are two paths here. You might consider a Mackie Onyx 1640 w/Firewire option (approx. $1,700). The other path would be something along the lines of the M-Audio 1010, 1010LT, Echo Layla 3G, etc.. <

I may have not been clear here. I think we'll do the voices 1 track at a time - or rent time at a local studio, isolate the singers and do several at once - but we don't need the capability to record lots of simultaneous tracks for this project. Don't know if we'll try to record at home - otoh it's just a demo and we can come up with reasonable sound in our music room, but otoh the voices on an opera demo ought to sound as good as possible. The music tracks will always sound a bit stiff, as they were entered in single-note mode (manual quantization! g>...) - that's why I'm happy to just go out of Finale into midi - nothing to be gained by staying in Finale, as far as I can see. If he adds more instrumental tracks there are still no timing issues to deal with, and we can still kick them over to midi and export from Finale.

I was looking around this morning and saw the Lexicon Omega - I'm a bit curious about it, as I know someone at Lexicon and have always liked their products - very low-end, but it would get voice tracks in...

> You must have decent monitors. <
I'm good on monitors.

> Whoo boy. Manning loves PowerTracks, partially for it's MIDI functionality. Mackie Tracktion because it is free through the end of the year. I would look at SONAR, Cubase, or a similar high powered sequencing package. I would insure that whatever I got supported both VST and VSTi natively. <

No more deal on Tracktion - it's now a whole $80 <g>, which puts it in the same price range as CoolEdit Pro and Cakewalk's home studio - I've used both of them, and Tracktion looks kind of cool. The Lexicon Omega comes with a lite version of Cubase, or ProTracks - I've never played with either editor.

> Orchestral sounds for MIDI tracks -No idea! Sorry. <

I'm thinking relatively simple sound card, or possibly an external synth module, and considering heading to the local studio for a final mix, as we could patch in all sorts of fancy midi sound stuff for a reasonable fee. I have time to sort this one out.

> Microphones - You made no mention of whether or not you had microphones. <

I have a tiny selection of OK but not incredible mics - so again, we might go incrementally - record some vocal tracks at home - invite singers for big dinner, etc. - and cut better vocal tracks later if the project comes together well. That's the nice thing about the multitracking and midi instruments - it'll sound crude but it's very flexible.


Thanks again for your thoughts! -- Peter
 
> Well Finale can do the orchestration for you and export MIDI to a sequencer. From that point, you're going to have to play with the MIDI a lot to get a realistic performance. <

Yes, I'm thinking more and more that way. He can keep developing tracks in Finale, and we can periodically move them over to whatever sequencer/mixer we choose. Look for some reasonable midi sounds for development and do final mixdown at a local studio that has a lot of good-quality midi sound modules for instrument sounds.

> Your big problem is processing power--for realistic softsynth sounds, you need way more processing power than that, plus you have to buy the softsynths. <

I expect we'll have to spring for a more powerful computer relatively soon. The project has been sitting for about a year for various reasons - if he really gets involved again, then we'll consider where we have to go for computer power.

> With a limited budget for a one-off project, you might consider farming out the MIDI once you finish the orchestration to somebody who does that sort of thing. Then get a stereo mix of the orchestra in return. From there, go to a studio to record the vocals. <

Yes - exactly! Or possibly do some home vocal recording of chorus and initial solo voices, just to see how it all goes together, then re-record the solo voices in studio later.

> As for the chorus, no you can't use a chorusing effect for a realistic sound, nor does doubling work particularly well. You really need a chorus. <

Well - if it's really a home recording project, I suppose we could have some singer friends come in and record a bunch of tracks - "build a chorus". I assume we could then combine tracks, as the material wouldn't have to change much after it's put down the first time....
 
Peter Tourin said:
> Well Finale can do the orchestration for you and export MIDI to a sequencer. From that point, you're going to have to play with the MIDI a lot to get a realistic performance. <

Yes, I'm thinking more and more that way. He can keep developing tracks in Finale, and we can periodically move them over to whatever sequencer/mixer we choose. Look for some reasonable midi sounds for development and do final mixdown at a local studio that has a lot of good-quality midi sound modules for instrument sounds.
Click to expand...

OK then, all you really need then is a soundcard with decent general MIDI (GM) sounds and a line input for audio tracks, and a serviceable microphone & preamp. That takes the load off your processor and will get go where you need to go before you go into the studio.

I can't recommend a good card though--ask on the MIDI board here for a recommendation.


Well - if it's really a home recording project, I suppose we could have some singer friends come in and record a bunch of tracks - "build a chorus". I assume we could then combine tracks, as the material wouldn't have to change much after it's put down the first time....
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's what doesn't work too well. 10 singers on 10 tracks does not sound like 10 singers on 1 track.
 
mshilarious said:
>> Well - if it's really a home recording project, I suppose we could have some singer friends come in and record a bunch of tracks - "build a chorus". I assume we could then combine tracks, as the material wouldn't have to change much after it's put down the first time.... <<

> Yeah, that's what doesn't work too well. 10 singers on 10 tracks does not sound like 10 singers on 1 track.<
Click to expand...

Would you talk a bit more about this? I've never thought about it, and I have no idea what would work well or badly. Are you saying that if you multitrack it and don't have a bunch of singers in one room at once, it just won't sound well no matter how you multitrack, no matter whether you combine tracks or not?

Thanks - Peter
 
Peter Tourin said:
Would you talk a bit more about this? I've never thought about it, and I have no idea what would work well or badly. Are you saying that if you multitrack it and don't have a bunch of singers in one room at once, it just won't sound well no matter how you multitrack, no matter whether you combine tracks or not?
Click to expand...

It might sound very nice, but it won't sound the same as a chorus. You'll hear much more detail in each voice, and the voices will be very present, very forward in the mix. It's kind of like your synth orchestra--you won't use 40 solo violin patches, you'll probably use 3 or 4 string orchestra patches.

A chorus, as heard by a single mic (or a single listener) is a complicated waveform. There are very slight delays imparted by the differences in distance of the singers to the mics. There are the complex reflections of the room. There is the difference in mic response from the distance a choir will be versus the distance an individual singer will be, as well as the position of the various singers to the axis of the microphone. Of course there is the different timbres of the singers, and their slight variations in pitch and timing.

You can try to compensate for all these factors, but it's going to be difficult. However, if you can score at least 5 or 6 singers, and put them in a reasonably sized room, you can probably create a decent illusion with 2 or 3 stereo tracks.
 
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