EQ'ing Toms

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MadMax

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I'm recording in Sonar 5 and I've got a well tuned, good sounding drum kit. The toms are mic'ed with SM-57's and when I mix, I'm having to use a LOT of EQ to get them to cut through. I'm looking for a pretty cutting, hard rock type sound.
I've read that it's not good to push plug in EQ's or they start to sound bad. Well, for a tom hit, I think about a half a second of bad sounding EQ won't be too noticeable, and to me it's not. But I digress...Has anybody else run across bad sounding EQ plugs? What exactly do they sound like? DO they distort?
I guess my way around this is to EQ on the way in. But are there any tricks anybody knows about for getting a sharp attack on toms?
Any good plugs especially suited for this?
 
Max,

A lot of times you can improve a tom sound quite a bit by cutting out the boxy sounding midrange around 300 Hz. And don't be afraid to use extreme EQ if that's what's needed.

--Ethan
 
On the toms, ask yourself this question. If you - or your drummer, depending on who's actually swinging the sticks - are playing in a small club, does the audience in front of the band have trouble hearing the toms?

If the answer is "yes", then the trouble is not EQ or miking, it's the drumming itself.

If the answer is "no", then consider skipping the tom mics altogether, because you really don't need them. If you insist on miking the toms for a certian mix production style, then consider switching to a different mic or preamp...especially if you're already using a 57 with the same pre elsewhere on the drums.

As far as EQs, yeah there are all sorts of different sounding EQ plugs. In fact, I'd say that practically every one of them sounds different from the next. I have been known to use four different EQ plugs on one song, as each EQ has it's strengths and weaknesses. Putting the adjective "bad" on them is a tough call, that's a very subjective opinion. Though in general the trend is for folks to think that the more natural-sounding the EQ plug, the better the quality.

G.
 
Glen has some great points there.

The bottom line is to do only what needs to be done in order to make your toms sound good. You'll hear this a thousand times and it's totally true...sure there are some basic guidelines when it comes to this stuff, but any given track is never going to need the exact same thing. It's very subjective. The suggestion of cutting out around 300 is a really good one though. That can be an ugly area. In addition to that, I'd like to add that it's good to either gate your toms, or edit out all the chunks where they're not being played. When not played, they rattle and will add a lot of low end ugliness to your overall mix. Get those parts out for sure.
 
When you track, get the fattest tom sounds that you can. 90% of the issues go right to how the toms are tuned.
 
You might consider time aligning the tom tracks with the toms in the overheads. Zoom in on a clear transient and shift the tom track over to align the same transient with the overheads. I've tried this before and gotten just a slightly clearer attack on the toms. It might not be a big difference, It may not sound noticably different at all, but I suppose it's always worth a try to see if it buys you anything.

As was already said, you should be sure to gate the tracks or cut out all the garbage in between tom hits using your DAW. I use Sonar 5 myself and I do that manually by slicing and editing the clips. I find that easier and much more reliable than trying to set up a gate to work like I want it. The overall sound will improve considerably when the toms are not playing, and when you add effects you won't be adding them to all the sounds you don't want (like adding even more pop to the snare bleed in the tom mic).

I say who cares if you need to use some pretty extreme EQ to get what you want. I usually end up eq'ing toms alot. Perhaps I'm making up for what better mics or pres would buy me (I use SM57's too), but who cares? Whatever works.
 
make sure the mics aren't pointed to close to the rim, and like ethan said
i often cut somewhere between 300 -500 hrz, with a medium-ish bell, and boost in the 5K area (give or take)-this is usually a smaller bell.
i also usually use some slowish attack compression on my toms to pull some more stick out if i want it (10-40 ms attack, all depends on the situation)
when setting compression it helps to pull the threashold down really far whille you try different attack and release times so you can better hear the effect it's having on the instrument. when you find what you like lighten up on the threashold to a reasonable level.
an other times fast limiting to get some body back.
occasionally both.

sometimes i do nothing, or other stuff.
 
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oh and, i personally have nothing good to say about 57's on toms.
 
MadMax said:
But are there any tricks anybody knows about for getting a sharp attack on toms?
Click to expand...

play with more compression.
 
The only real problem with radical EQ'ing on toms is that it makes the bleed sound strange. Taking out all the lower mids and cranking the 5k will make the cymbal wash sound a little harsh.

In order for the toms to cut, the drummer has to hit them, not tap them. It is the drummers job to coax the sound out of the drums, just touching the drums in the right order isn't good enough.
 
Farview said:
Taking out all the lower mids and cranking the 5k will make the cymbal wash sound a little harsh.
Click to expand...

i'm assuming there are no big bleed problems.
and i never said all, and i also did not say crank.
 
giraffe said:
i'm assuming there are no big bleed problems.
and i never said all, and i also did not say crank.
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I wasn't addressing anything you said. It's not always about you. :)
 
i see a lot of guys point them at the edge of the shell striaght down - i always have more success angling them to where the drummer hits the tom.

new heads work wonders...i prefer coated...they give me more attack. tune em!

i always seem to use the lo-cut on toms. particularly with SDCs which rule on toms...

i'm using 57's on toms for a project i'm doing now...they are useable...but yeah...there are better...i actually really kinda dug those sennheiser 604 things when i used them. maybe it was just that they were easy to place...but they sounded really rad too...no muss no fuss.

in the end it's all about the drummer tho...

blab,
Mike
 
I've got my tracks edited and time aligned, so phase and bleed are not issues. I have a hard time believing that a 57 is a bad mic for toms. Especially since I'm EQ'ing, compressing and 'verbing it. I'm not going for a very natural sound here. I'm looking for a Fat, in yer face, ROCK sound.
Good tip on pulling 300 out, I've already done that, and I've got a bump around 125 and one at 4-5K. It's just that my curve is pretty extreme, like from +10dB to -12dB. Whatever works I guess...

BTW, my drummer knows how to hit. In fact, he is a 30 year veteran and he's a pounder but he also knows how to hit cymbals, so technique is not the problem.
I'll post a mp3 this afternoon.
 
Also maybe think about your mix and what else is happening in the song. Someone gave me some great advice once. "There's no way everything can be loudest. Especially at the same time."
 
MadMax said:
. I have a hard time believing that a 57 is a bad mic for toms....... I'm not going for a very natural sound here. I'm looking for a Fat, in yer face, ROCK sound.........It's just that my curve is pretty extreme, like from +10dB to -12dB. Whatever works I guess...
Click to expand...
That is how you can tell, if you are going for a 'natural' sound and you have to EQ the crap out of it, it isn't the right mic for the job.
 
boingoman said:
"There's no way everything can be loudest. Especially at the same time."
Click to expand...

i've actually accomplished this. it hurt. :eek: :D

i kinda agree - if yer eqing that much - you may actually stop thinking about mics and start thinking about how the tom actually sounds...you should be pretty close to there before the mic goes up....just my opine.

Mike
 
I think it's been mentioned, but if you're having trouble with tom mics, you should maybe go back to basics and mic with just 4. And if you say you can't get a good sound with 4, you won't get a good sound with 12 either Just more problems..
 
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