eq monitors or not?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Singtall
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Download a copy of Room EQ Wizard and use your measurement mic to plot a sweep at the mix position.
Only then will you really know how bad it is. In a small room there are likely 10-30dB peaks and dips in the 80-150Hz region at the mix position.

EQ'ing the monitors is a bad idea, since you affect their response over the whole room, so whilst you may fix it at a particular mix position, you exacerbate the problem at other positions in the room. The only real solution is to fix the room acoustics. Carpet and foam do almost nothing for low frequencies.
 
i have open cell foam sprayed on every wall and ceiling and carpeted floors. this room is dead. the room is wider than it is deep also....not sure how that effects things.
 
Straight walls, regular shape, corners...these add up to standing waves, bass build up in corners, nulls & build up in other spots.
Deadening the room, reducing 1st refection points etc are fine but they don't deal with most of the stuff above.
There's a LOT of stuff in HR about managing these things and the least recommended is tweaking speaker EQ.
Use the search facility and find solutions that suit your budget but DON'T look for solutions that siply reinforce your current opinion. Look at the ful range of options and then weigh up what can & can't be done.
 
i hear what your saying, but here's my problem; no matter where i put the reference mic, i'm still reading a small dip in the low mids.....that's it. using a parametric eq, i simply added a thin slice of the missing low mids until the meter read flat eq. other than that very small dip in low mids, everything measures fine.

i will try the Room EQ Wizard and see what readings it gives so i can see if it's consistent with what i'm getting using the presonus mixer utility.

thanks guys.
 
Singtall said:
i hear what your saying, but here's my problem; no matter where i put the reference mic, i'm still reading a small dip in the low mids.....that's it. using a parametric eq, i simply added a thin slice of the missing low mids until the meter read flat eq. other than that very small dip in low mids, everything measures fine.

i will try the Room EQ Wizard and see what readings it gives so i can see if it's consistent with what i'm getting using the presonus mixer utility.

thanks guys.
Click to expand...

In my understanding the reason why you cannot apply EQ to correct it is because the inaccuracies are non-linear, the issue is similar to emulating an analog console track with software, the difficulty lies in capturing the frequency response at all velocity levels and at all states, it's very non-linear.

You are much better off using automatic frequency matching with an EQ, the issue is the same, but at least you come slightly closer to something that can actually improve the sound.
 
yeah, it's a complicated problem for sure.

i played around and eq'd with the sound at 85db (my normal listening volume) and it helps some. what i'm doing is turning on the eq for a few minutes just to double check my low mids, then i turn it back off and mix with no eq added. it's a crutch, but that's where i'm at financially right now.

i'm also taking mixes into the car and even on my laptop for double triple checking, and that helps.

bottom line: i gotta get used to the sound of these speakers.
 
Singtall said:
yeah, it's a complicated problem for sure.

i played around and eq'd with the sound at 85db (my normal listening volume) and it helps some. what i'm doing is turning on the eq for a few minutes just to double check my low mids, then i turn it back off and mix with no eq added. it's a crutch, but that's where i'm at financially right now.

i'm also taking mixes into the car and even on my laptop for double triple checking, and that helps.

bottom line: i gotta get used to the sound of these speakers.
Click to expand...

If you have the wrong monitors/acoustics/cans, they might make it nearly impossible to mix, your whole gain structure might end up totally wrong, so that the dynamics are crushed and it sounds broken when you play it through certain speakers. The most important thing about your monitors/acoustics/cans is that they allow you to balance the low end correctly. When that is not the case, your mix is almost certainly a gain structure train wreck. You need to have a reference that you can trust when it comes to the low end, that's where it starts. Whatever you do, ensure you have a monitoring solution that enables you to dial in the low end with good precision.

Almost all non-pro mixes have these issues:

1. Much too much gain on bass guitar
2. Much too much gain on lead vocals
3. Too much gain on drums.

It's in that order too and it's mostly due to inaccuracies in the monitoring environment.
 
i've been guilty of all those sins in the past. i'm still trying to find a set of speakers that work with my ears.

i tried:

early Yamaha ns10m's - i mixed with WAY too much bottom end.

Behringer truth - I mixed too warm with very little highs.

Mackie first gen with 8's - better overall, but still too warm.

Yamaha HS80's first gen w/ matching subwoofer- current speakers. first mixes had a little too much low mids. still battling that issue, but overall better to my ears. other problem is that i can use way too much compression and can't really hear the problem on these speakers.

i need to find a better speaker for my ear, or spend a lot more time with these. it's a hard thing to do when it's a project shed/studio.

any speaker recommendations based on what i'm doing wrong with the speakers i've used?
 
Singtall said:
i tried:

early Yamaha ns10m's - i mixed with WAY too much bottom end.

Behringer truth - I mixed too warm with very little highs.

Mackie first gen with 8's - better overall, but still too warm.

Yamaha HS80's first gen w/ matching subwoofer- current speakers. first mixes had a little too much low mids. still battling that issue, but overall better to my ears. other problem is that i can use way too much compression and can't really hear the problem on these speakers.

i need to find a better speaker for my ear, or spend a lot more time with these. it's a hard thing to do when it's a project shed/studio.

any speaker recommendations based on what i'm doing wrong with the speakers i've used?
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I'm starting to see a pattern here. Seems you've always mixed "bottom" heavy. You've got a good set of monitors there, and I think you're over complicating the issue.

Eq'ing a set of speakers is mostly done when you're running a set of high powered Mains (fixed speakers) mounted back away from the listener in the upper wall. You EQ them to have a flat frequency response in your listening area (sweet spot). From what I remember you must have a certain microphone (earthworks?) to get an accurate reading when shooting the room.

You're mixing on Nearfields or reference monitors which are very close to the listener.. It's not necessary to EQ them as their is very little "room" in the short distance they have to travel in reaching your ears. You just need to get use to how they sound.

A few suggestions. Get rid of the EQ and put the subwoofer on a foot switch so you can turn it on when setting the kick and bass and then turn it off. You should take your favorite CD, the one you know and think sounds the best, and listen to it a few times on just the speakers (no sub). While you're listening you'll be able to tell if these monitors are accurately representing the true sound of your favorite record. FOR EXAMPLE: If by chance you're listening to "Smells Like Teen Spirit" by Nirvana and you know that on every other set of speakers the bass is much louder then you have a dip in the bass response of your hs80's. On the back of the hs80's there is a section called ROOM CONTROL. In this section you can then Boost the bottom end until "Smells Like Teen Spirit" sounds exactly as you remember it sounding.

Now I'm typing this on my phone and trying to remember what I was taught years ago about tuning a room and EQ speakers Blah blah blah. I "think" I'm accurate on most of what I said , and hope it mostly makes sense. You've got great monitors and I know you can make em work for you!! Let me know if you have any questions or if something doesn't quite make sense and I can try to confuse you even more!! Haha
 
thanks for the reply. i was a live sound guy long before a studio guy, so i'm used to mixing with big bottom end. it's hard to stop it. lol.

i tried doing a little work with the eq off and i think it went well, then i added the eq for a few seconds only to make sure the low mids weren't too much, then i turned the eq back off.

i do need to spend a lot more time listening to these speakers before mixing anything serious.

thanks guys.
 
Try a mix without your sub. It could be out of phase and overlapping in frequencies with the near fields, thereby cancelling out low mids.. I only use the sub as a reference in a mix. To see what is happening down there.
 
according to my spectrum analyzer; WITHOUT the subwoofer, i still have a low mid dip of about 5db, so the "problem" lies with the speaker itself.

the sub adds more of the same bass as the speaker already has....so not really flat once it's kicked in.

i setup the system with the eq by sending out pink noise and getting the crossover frequency/phase and subwoofer level right. i had to add low mids to make it flat.

i tried no subwoofer and the eq still ended up the same.

it's not a major amount of low mids missing, just a very narrow Q boost at about 225hz, and another slight bump at around 360hz. overall the speaker is fairly flat.

what started this whole deal is some guy on another forum who was listening to one of my guitar presets for the eleven rack on his speakers and he said that it sounded way off. he claimed that his system was flatter because he did the eq trick with the presonus mixer.....which is what i ended up trying just to see what the difference was (if any). i'm not sure what he was hearing, but the preset sound right no matter if a have the speakers eq'd or not.
 
Singtall said:
according to my spectrum analyzer; WITHOUT the subwoofer, i still have a low mid dip of about 5db, so the "problem" lies with the speaker itself.

the sub adds more of the same bass as the speaker already has....so not really flat once it's kicked in.

i setup the system with the eq by sending out pink noise and getting the crossover frequency/phase and subwoofer level right. i had to add low mids to make it flat.

i tried no subwoofer and the eq still ended up the same.

it's not a major amount of low mids missing, just a very narrow Q boost at about 225hz, and another slight bump at around 360hz. overall the speaker is fairly flat.

what started this whole deal is some guy on another forum who was listening to one of my guitar presets for the eleven rack on his speakers and he said that it sounded way off. he claimed that his system was flatter because he did the eq trick with the presonus mixer.....which is what i ended up trying just to see what the difference was (if any). i'm not sure what he was hearing, but the preset sound right no matter if a have the speakers eq'd or not.
Click to expand...


What Microphone did you use when you shot the room?
 
Man, until you deal with the room modes and what it does to your listening environment (nulls and peaks in your low end) by acoustically treating your room well, you will be guessing, then second guessing, and third......

No eq is going to cure an issue caused by physics.

The expansion foam is not in any way dealing with your low end issues in your room as far as I have ever read.

Maybe I should move this thread to the Studio Building and Acoustic Treatment forum. You will get better advice from some pro's there.

I will wait for your response first.
 
i used a behringer reference mic, and also tried a DBX reference mic....same results. the mic was at head level between the speakers, and i checked them one at a time. maybe 3 feet from the speakers? i was thinking that the sound should be more consistent at that distance.

i did some research and it is said that open cell expansion foam actually absorbs 100% of some frequencies....which is not good, our hears need some reflective surfaces for things to sound "normal". i might have went too dead with this room. oops!
 
Dude Stop all the craziness. Theres no point in EQ'ing Nearfields, it won't help.

Get all the foam bullshit out of the room and sit down, LISTEN and LEARN your speakers.... All this because some Hack Pretendgineer listened to a "guitar setting" and said it was "off". Well guess what, I'm a pretty decent Mixer with some pretty decent fucking credits. Your mixes were not bad at all. Sure there's a bit more low mids, so boost your fucking hi's and it will even out.

All this time wasted on tuning and equing could've been better spent mixing and listening and mixing some more and listening some more etc... If you wanna be a mixer then get on it, and I'll help you knock out a great mix. If you wanna shoot rooms and EQ speakers then get a job tuning rooms.

As far as I'm concerned mixing is WAAAAAAY more fun!!!

Seacrest OUT!!!!
 
Singtall said:
according to my spectrum analyzer; WITHOUT the subwoofer, i still have a low mid dip of about 5db, so the "problem" lies with the speaker itself.

the sub adds more of the same bass as the speaker already has....so not really flat once it's kicked in.

i setup the system with the eq by sending out pink noise and getting the crossover frequency/phase and subwoofer level right. i had to add low mids to make it flat.

i tried no subwoofer and the eq still ended up the same.

it's not a major amount of low mids missing, just a very narrow Q boost at about 225hz, and another slight bump at around 360hz. overall the speaker is fairly flat.

what started this whole deal is some guy on another forum who was listening to one of my guitar presets for the eleven rack on his speakers and he said that it sounded way off. he claimed that his system was flatter because he did the eq trick with the presonus mixer.....which is what i ended up trying just to see what the difference was (if any). i'm not sure what he was hearing, but the preset sound right no matter if a have the speakers eq'd or not.
Click to expand...
Jumping in later here so sorry if I missed something, but what would (or should) the sub have to do with being up in the 2-300Hz range? (Should be just filling in a bit below the main's cut off freq?
 
I'm a little confused. Are we talking about testing the monitors or the room? I thought you tried to get the room to read as flat as possible.
Rod Norman
Engineer
 
EQ'ing "monitors" flies in the face of reason to me.

At any give price level they are supposed to be a reference. IF the near field theory of monitoring has ANY validity at all then the speakers leave the factory "right" If NF theory is wrong (something I doubt very much!) then most of us might as well pack up and go 'ome..Oh! We most of us are!

Yes, monitors often have built in response adjustments but these are "broad brush tilt" controls, often to correct to some degree for less than optimum mounting positions in the LF end. Quite why monitors have HF shelf adjustments I do not know. To cater for deaf old farts like I perhaps?

Dave.
 
i've spent more time talking about it than actually shooting the room. i spent all of maybe 2 minutes on the eq thing, it was that close to flat.

i've always dealt with the reference monitors as-is and never thought of eqing them. like i said, it was one guy talking to me making me feel like i was an old engineer that needed to get with the times. lol. i just wanted to be able to say that i exhausted the possibilities and that eqing isn't the solution.

i can't easily fix my foamed room because the stuff is sprayed on everywhere, but i can put up some movable walls to isolate the mix area and get it sounding right. i've done some more mixing in there and i feel that i'm getting used to the room though.

thanks for the advice and conversation guys. i will be posting clips of the project i just started in this room in another thread.
 
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