English, please.....

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one more thing:
Stay away from "The art of sound reproduction" By John Watkinson. ;)

Or reed at your own risk.

/later
 
I could just ignore this, and maybe I should of, but, sorry guys, this just drives me nuts ..grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :mad: :mad: :mad:

When I read "shshsh......stuff" like this:
Tim Gillett said:
....

All eq curves like this area all about avoiding noise and distortion in the recorder. ....

For example, a piano generally doesnt have a lot of energy in the treble range and so strictly neither NAB nor IEC would be ideal. ...

In many ways the later noise reduction systems like Dolby and dbx took this a big step further because they changed eq and levels in a dynamic way (constantly changing in response to the music) in both record and playback, so that there was much less risk of running into either tape noise or tape distortion.

Of course with digital audio recording techniques there is no noise equivalent to analog recording noise (except analog noise in the electronic circuitry which is much less of a problem anyway) and so the complexities of things like IEC, NAB, RIAA, and indeed compander noise reduction are not needed.

Hope this helps. Tim
Click to expand...

Well, Tim, NO! No it does not help at all, because a complete Nonsense have never nor ever could help anybody in any way.

Equalization in analog tape recording process is not a "noise reduction" scheme. (even though it may and does affect signal to noise ratio of the reproducer)

In analog tape recording Equalization Standards (or any non-standard equalization scheme) are not "options" possibly providing "ideal ways" to record a piano, a flute, a big old drum or a dogs' bark.

"NAB and IEC" are not ideal for piano? Do I hear you right, Tim?

This is not even funny anymore.

You see, guys, people who read books like "The art of sound reproduction" and similar and then "speak out" from a position of an "expert" are , may I say, - DANGEROUS.
And many of those people ending up writing books too.

So , again: READ B-BOARDS (and books!!!) with extreme caution!!!!!!!.

/later
 
Thank you Dr. Zee for both the new 'student42' idea :), and for correcting that last post by Tim.

(sorry Tim, and certainly no offense, but your post did throw me off a little bit, especially when compared to everything else that I've read in here so far by these guys.)

And special thanks to 'SweetBeats' as well - your last post there really seem to make a lot of sense to me with the way you put some of it. I'm still a bit 'nervous' when it actually comes time for me to make these calibrations and adjustments here soon, but that extra info you added seemed to really 'click' with me for some reason.

(However, I still think I may need you guys help a little, when it comes time for me to 'physically' do the alignments & calibrations - if you don't mind of course? - just to be on the 'safe-side' :)

And by the way - when it comes time to do these adjustments - are the actual 'step-by-step' instructions in the Otari manual, or do they come with the MRL tape itself?

(Unfortunately, I don't have the original manual for this Otari-MTR-10, but I'm going to try to find & download one here, right after this post.) and also, are there any good 'videos' or whatnots out there which actually show you step-by-step on how to do all of these adjustments & calibrations? - or am I pretty much just on my own here! :)

And last but not least - the only reason I brought up the question about 'erasing tapes' with a 'degausser' or whatever, was mainly because I still haven't really decided on a certain 'tape' to go with so far. And again, since this machine was just given to me - I have no idea or way of knowing what type of actual 'tape' was used on this machine before I got it. So in a way, I just figured that since I had to do all of these calibrations, alignments, etc - I might as well 'choose' a good tape to use & pretty much 'stick with', if you know what I mean?

So again, if anyone has any recommendations, opinions, etc - on which 'tape' to go with (especially before I calibrate & 'set' this machine up) - please feel free to share any thoughts on that as well.

(and again, the only reason I mentioned the part about 'erasing' tapes - was because i thought that may be a decent way to try out & 'sample' some of these various tapes out there - and without the major expense of having to buy each one 'brand new' - that's all.)

But if you guys think that I just need to completely 'stay away' from a 'degausser' or 'bulk-tape-erasers' - then just let me know that as well. I certainly don't want to screw anything up with the Otari.

- but i was also told that by 'erasing' tapes, you could save a decent amount of money by re-using them again and not having to buy a 'new' tape each time you use one up. I still plan on reading the above links one of you posted (about 'tape shredding') - but is this true in any way? - and do any of you guys 'erase' tapes for these same reasons?

(again, - just curious, and I'm still 'learning' here :) - don't think I'm going to run out and do it! :)


(p.s.) - Oh, and by the way Dr. Zee - you mentioned that I would need 3 tools (or 'proper equipment') in order to do all of my proper alignmenets & such (correct?) - generator, oscilloscope and a nice and "appropriate for the task" ac meter

Besides the ones you showed me on Ebay - can you tell me the 'actual names' or 'technical names' for each one that I'll need? (in case I can't win these?) - or in other words, "what 'type' of 'oscilloscope' will I be needing for example? (I hear that there are many different models & types out there.) Same goes for the 'generator' & 'AC meter'. - this would help me a lot. (thanks again)
 
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student8 said:
Thank you Dr. Zee for both the new 'student42' idea :), and for correcting that last post by Tim.

(sorry Tim, and certainly no offense, but your post did throw me off a little bit, especially when compared to everything else that I've read in here so far by these guys.)
Click to expand...

No offense taken.

IMHO emv1024 and Ofajen are very knowledgeable in this area. AFAIK I agree with all they've said here in response to your questions.

What was it about my post that threw you?

Cheers Tim
 
No big deal really Tim,

It was mainly just the part about not using NAB or IEC for 'piano' (or any other certain 'instruments') that threw me a little.

I guess I was more of the understanding that setting up for either NAB or IEC EQ was mainly intended for the 'entire machines' overall 'sound' - and not so much for individual instruments, that's all.

But then again, I may be 'wrong' about this - and I'm still in my 'learning stage' here, so maybe I interpreted what you were trying to say incorrectly?

- But I'm certainly not trying to question anyone's veracity of what they know and are educated on by any means - at least not at my level of 'analog' knowledge so far :)
 
I wasnt saying "dont use IEC or NAB for piano".

I spoke of the special case of a musical instrument such as a piano which doesnt have a lot of high frequencies. In that case in addition to the treble boost of NAB or IEC some engineers would use even more treble boost than that, when recording the session, to mask tape hiss.

evm 1024 pointed out there's little if any difference in sound between a tape machine on NAB and one on IEC. It's not a sort of audio "flavour" you choose. It's a way of trying to fit the signal on the tape with the minimum noise or distortion.

NAB was at one time perhaps better at masking hum from a tape playback machine. IEC was better at recording music with heavy bass passages without going into distortion. But either was in a way a trade off. No one size fitted all circumstances.

NAB and IEC also became necessary standards for the interchange of tapes between machines etc. There is no contradiction or argument here.

Tim
 
student8 said:
... I'm certainly not trying to question anyone's veracity ... :)
Click to expand...
Well, you should. That is so, if you really care about "learning yourself" part :)
*************
I am going to put this one more "way", for what it worth:
- Equalization in analog tape recording is part of an attempt to compensate/optimize the process of transformation of the signal in the record-head-to-tape-to-playback-head "section" of a recorder-reproducer system to yield the best possible linearity. This is the task, that a tape-recorder/reproducer maker (at any given moment in history!) faces.
- Equalization Standards are governing agreements between tape-recorders makers on how to "accomplish" the task above, without which the interchange of recorded material would not be possible.

If successful interchange of the recorded material that you are making using your machine is required or simply desired, then compliance to a standard is a must.
************
MAGNETIC REFERENCE LABORATORY, INC. plus your Recorder's service manual - are the sources of information on how to maintain your machine in compliance with Standard(s) (if compliance with a Standard is your goal, of course :) ). You simply follow the instructions provided.
Understanding of any sort about anything is not required. :cool:
You see, life is EASY :p :rolleyes: :D
**************
About test equipment, check this thread: https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=286745 , it's going good :)
**********
Used tapes.
afaik, As long the tape is not "defective" it's perfectly fine to re-use it.
I use small hand-held bulk eraser for 1/4" tape, works fine for me. Mine is ROBINS. You need follow the instructions on how exactly use it. It's simple .
I personally never had one of those popular and often seen on eBay Realistic/RadioShack ones, so can't say anything, but I'd imagine, they should do the job.
There are olso kinda' nice and larger box-like table-top erasers out there. I have one of those to (also ROBINS "brand"), but it needs to be fixed, and I never had time to play with it yet.
 
Well guys,

- first off, I can't tell you just how much your words of wisdom & wonderful 'attempts' of trying to teach me this stuff has been - seriously, "thank you" (especially Dr. Zee, Sweetbeats, evm1024, jedblue, & Otto) - you guys have really took some time on here to try & help me out with all of this confusion, and I at least want to thank you for that.

However, I must say, I really feel 'bad' that you guys have tried so hard with me, and yet - I still don't seem to 'get' or understand the more 'technical stuff', mostly such as the 'calibrations', 'alignments', oscillators, frequency generators, how to use MRL tapes properly? - (well, i think you understand for the most part.)

I really feel that I've let you guys 'down' in a way, and I would give anything at this point if I could just somehow 'grasp it', to where it really made 'good sense' to me, you know?

I live out in the northern 'boonies' where there is NO technical help whatsoever. (i've already checked.) No recording schools. No local service technicians to ask questions to, or better yet, just to watch them a few times & learn 'hands-on'. (hell, there's barely even 'one' little music store way out here!) I have NO IDEA as to how you guys learned this kind of stuff on your own. I really don't. This has been so 'depressing' for me lately, you just don't know.

I've been so lucky to obtain some pretty 'nice' analog equipment in recent months from a family member that passed, and this is the kind of equipment that I only 'dreamed' of owning since I was a young kid. Know I finally own it - and can't seem to get anything 'right' it seems. I mean, I've read nearly EVERY, single post, manual, etc, that you guys recommended & posted (even the web-links!) But I guess I'm just not the 'technical-minded' person that I was hoping I was or hoping to become.

I've been working with all of this stupid 'digital' equipment for so many years now (when the whole time, i only wished & dreamed of being able to use real mixers, reel-to-reel machines, actual 'tape', etc) - but now a lot of this techinal stuff only means very little to me. (not to mention, even if I could find someone in my area to help me with all of this, i can't afford to call them every so often to constantly 'align' my machines, VU meters, heads, etc, you know?

I would give ANYTHING if someone (or company) out there, would just make a simple video or DVD to slowly 'walk you through', step-by-step & help you understand how the whole entire process works. (man, that would be great.) But I can't seem to find anything like that.

Please don't get me wrong here guys - you have taught me some things, such as the whole NAB vs. IEC thing - and the 15ips vs. 30ips. - that wasn't too hard for me to grasp after you guys slowly walked me through it.

But my main 'confusion' (yet, still my main 'goal') is just all of this 'calibration', alignments, oscilloscopes, volt meters, tone generators, test tones, head adjustments - anything in that entire area - MAN!! I AM SO LOST & CONFUSED!!! - and most of these manuals that I've been reading - only make it even MORE confusing to me. Absolutely nothing is in laymen's or 'easy-to-understand' terms. (I wish they would make one of those 'Dummy' books for this kind of stuff.)

'No', unfortunately I'm not very 'electronically skilled' and don't really know too much about how most of these various pieces of 'test equipment' even work, or how to actually 'use them' either.

But I can say this much: I am very much willing (and desperately wanting) to learn how.

I do know quite a bit about 'basic recording' in general - that's not the problem at all. I just always thought that if i ever had a chance to actually obtain real 'analog' equipment (such as the old r2r machines, mixers & such) all I would have to really do is learn how to 'hook it up' the correct way, locate some reel tapes, and do some occasional 'head cleaning' & such. (boy, was I wrong!!)

I had NO IDEA that you would practically have to be an MIT honer graduate, just to learn how to do the basic calibrations & maintenance on a simple recording machine!

Look, I so apologize for the 'rant' here guys. You guys definitely don't deserve that or even need that. I just feel like an absolute 'imbecile' now, and I seem to be getting just more depressed by the day. I really thought I could learn this stuff & finally be able to get back to the more important stuff like 'recording music'. But I don't won't to 'ruin' or tear-up my machines either - I'm a very firm believer in well-maintenance & proper calibrations on nice equipment, especially since this was handed down to me by a close family member - but I think I'm just at this really 'frustrating' dilemma right now. And it now seems that if I'm EVER to fully understand all of this & really get the hang of it - it's going to take not only the smallest 'baby-steps' know to mankind for me - but I mean I'll have to find a way for everything to be broken down in the most simplistic terms in modern history (I mean like seriously trying to teach a 2nd grade child that drools out the side of his mouth, and has been held back for 2 grades) - on how to actually do all of this!!

- that's how seriously 'dumb' I am in trying to learn all of this 'technical stuff' and how I actually need to be 'talked to'.

But seriously - if ANYONE knows 'how' to teach me at this level, or like I mentioned before, a 'DVD' or video of some sort for sale that will walk you through this 'step-by-slow-step' - PLEASE let me know.

- I just honestly don't know what else to do, nor do I want to even 'pretend' to act like I understand anyone in here if in fact I really don't understand, you know what I mean?

- But I don't want to 'give up' either guys - I really do want & need to learn this. Please know that. Hell, I mentioned earlier in this thread that I 'obtained' this vintage equipment from a 'family member' that recently passed. I guess I might as well should have told you that it was my father. From the years that he owned this equipment & used it - I was away in the military for awhile and never really got a chance to actually 'learn' how to 'maintain' & do things like this from him. I guess I always thought I would 'have time to' - but I didn't. (and he really took good care of this equipment.)

Maybe that's also 'why' I wish to learn all of this stuff so badly, and why I DO NOT want to 'give up' either.

- I just can't guys.

sincerely,

Stanley
 
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So don't give up.

But also, if you want to learn, understand that it will take time but you can do it...it just takes time. 2 years ago I knew nothing, and now I can do it...not that it takes that long, okay? I'm just saying I was where you are and, basically thanks to the folks on this forum, I can do it.

Okay:

  • If your Father maintained it well it is likely that, unless it has been in storage for a long time or has been transported around, that it is still reasonably well calibrated. These things do "drift" over time, but you aren't running a 7-day/week operation that asks the recorder to be setup for different tape and reference levels day in and day out. So...
  • Use it...get familiar with the operation of it and how it sounds. Get to know it and then bit by bit learn the maintenance piece okay?
  • You are really trying to take a really big bite but you don't need to do that IMHO and it is making it hard for you to get a foothold. You aren't going to kill it by using it.

I suggest:

  1. Get a good demagnetizer if your Father didn't already have one and let's get you acclimated to using that.
  2. Get some head cleaner (your Father probably had that already) either good quality denatured alcohol, 91% or better isopropyl alcohol or a dedicated head cleaner...Teac and Radio Shack used to make some good products. Get some 100% cotton makeup remover pads (the quilty looking ones) for cleaning the heads and the tape path.

Let's just start with those basics for now.

If you want to do some reading I suggest just reading through the "Reference" section in the MS-16 manual. It is a well-written primer on the history of analog technology, and some engineering theory particularly levels and such. If you get comfortable with that it will help when we get into the calibration.

Once those things are comfy and you've had some fun using the MS-16 then we'll start with a basic VU meter calibration. In that process you'll acquire some of the tools needed for the rest of the process to come, and also enter that area of the system that has the trimmers that you'll get more into.

Okay...review:

Step 1: get the basic day-to-day maintenance tools/supplies and get used to using them
Step 2: have some fun using the MS-16 knowing that you aren't hurting it
Step 3: read and assimilate what you can out of the Reference section of the MS-16 manual
Step 4: get ready to calibrate your meters

If anybody else disagrees with this please feel free to speak up.

I truly believe I can empathize with your desire and frustration. Have confidence that you'll get "there", and ask questions...nothing is too small or basic...even as you read through the Reference section...ask. If we can help you reach your goals then we've got another operator keeping his analog gear going and that's what we are about in addition to having fun discussing such matters. Just remember to slow down and try to take small bites...one step, one question at a time. You'll be able to move faster as we go along but if you don't slow down, like I said earlier, its really hard to get a foothold.

Once last thing...please can you put a list here of the equipment you have outside of the MS-16...it'll help me mentally prepare for what else you may need as we go along AND

It might be a good idea to take some closeup in-focus pics of your tape path...that may clue us in to other thangs to get to sooner rather than later if there is anything to address.
 
I am currently working on adjusting and aligning an MS-16. It has been going well, I have learned alot about this machine in the last 2 months. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask. I have only been aligning my own machines for about a year now, I have learned alot. This has been a very helpful and informative thread.
Good luck,
VP:cool:
 
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