emagic's "Logic Control" and how I could fit it into my scenerio.

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hmm

Sometimes i get lost when your talking about 8 buss, main buss, recording this, blah. But i think i understood most of it.

So assigning different tracks to different buss's, so if i had say, the vocals on one buss, and the bassline on the other buss, what would that mean? That on the delta card, they would go through different outputs? Cause from what ive used of logic, it seems as though i can adjust the volume of each track individually, and i don't remember setting them to different buss's, considering i didn't know what a buss was.

"I assign my channels to the 8 busses on my soundcard and apply EQ and more effects thru my mixer to those 8 discreet channels. I then assign those 8 channels to my master buss and I record the output of the master buss back onto a stereo track in Logic."

so if i understand correctly, your assiging all your different tracks in your song to different buss's, so they get different effects. (in logic, where you can go into the audio mixer, and add effects and control volume, paning etc.. thats a buss right?) and then you add effects to each one, adjust it, level them and adjust their volume so they all sound good together, then send them through the master buss, so all 8 record as 1 track. Ok, if thats it, thats exactly what i was thinking, just thought you were saying something different. I do the same thing, accept i just bounced them into one track on the computer. Mastering then? Hmm, i guess i have my terminology wrong, i thought that was mastering!!! adding the effects, eqing, leveling, then mixing down into a single track(complete song). So does mastering refer to the processes you put a complete mix through? So you just have one track that is the full song, and you eq/ add effects to complete song, adding the effects to everythign in it?

"8 busses on my soundcard"

hmm, that would lead me to beleive that you arent infact talking about the things in the audio mixer, where you can apply effects, change the volume/pan individual tracks. Unless, each one of those controls a buss of the soundcard?

So your essentially bouncing the tracks through the mixer, instead of bouncing them with logic? And im guessing you have outboard effects your process your sounds with. But Basically, your just taking say, all the individual drums hits, assuming they're in seperate tracks (buss's?) and mixing them down into one track, so instead of the computer dealing with multiple tracks, it just has one with them all combined. And also when you do this, any effects the computer was applying to those tracks, is now recorded into the mixdown, so it doesn't need to be apply anymore, saving some of the cpu's power? So you could do this, condensing a bunch of tracks into one to make your mixing easier, and less taxing on the computer, or for the final mixdown into the complete track? Now if this is what is going on, and i don't have any outboard eq or effects, and im doing it all with softwear in logic, wouldn't it make sense to just bounce then into one track, then reload it? Awweee.. hold on.. that would require loading up a new logic project, and just having the few tracks you want, to be mixed down. but with the mixer you could just mute the ones you don't want, or just don't set them to the buss's being output to the mixer (master buss), and then mixdown the tracks into one, from the main project? This is assuming there is minimal, to no signal/quality lose in the process. I would assume, that going from digital computer - anaglog mixer - digial computer would have some loss, but, i don't really know. Man, i think im starting to get my head around this, if any of that is correct. It was tough, but i think i get it, just understanding the terminology is key.
 
hmm

hmm, ok i just went into logic, and looked in the audio mixer. The ones i were talking about, that i thought were buss's, where you add effects, volume changes, etc.. at the far left of the audio mixer, and are just assigned to the different tracks.
I saw at the far right, beside the master control, and output control, that there are 8 buss's, that look just like the the other effects, but they don't have and things called "sends", and they can only have effects. Would i have to assign the tracks, with the effects i put on them on the left, to be buss's, on the far right? I just tried changing track1, to be bus one, but no sound would play, and there was no activity in bus1 in the audiomixer. Whats the difference betwen just using the tracks in the audio mixer, with various effects and eqing and volume adjusting, and assiging them to the diferent busses (which look the same in the audio mixer, but have less options). Keep in mind i only have a sblive right now, and don't have my delta 44 or mackie mixing board yet, so it may not work because of that.
 
i disagree i think they don't sound as good because of experience and they have way better converters, they make the same Wave plugs for PT and PC


TexRoadkill said:
"Wouldn't that negate one of the major benefits of using a DAW - automation?"

True. But it would counter the greatest flaw of PC DAW's, poor DSP. That is why home recordings dont sound as good as a ProTools TDM recording.

But if he wants to do automated mixes than why buy a 32.8 Mackie? I would rather do the mix manually and not sacrifice sound quality. You might want to look at the Spirit M boards in that price range also.

This is all somewhat subjective and depends on the application. If I was doing film mixes than automation would be an absolute life saver. For rock or acoustic music I would rather not loose any of the tone of the original tracks.

I use a digital mixer so I sort of have the best of both worlds. But I want to get a better analog mixer instead.
Click to expand...
 
Almost got it Ambi. IN Logic all the tracks are on the left of the mixer. You can add effects here in the INSERT boxes. But say you have 4 tracks that you want to add the same reverb too. You could put a reverb in the INSERT box on each track (4 reverbs needed), or you can assign reverb to one bus. Instead of putting reverb on each channel, Put 1 reverb in the INSERT of Bus 1 on the right of the mixer. NOw go back to the track channels on the left and click on the Empty SEND box, and choose Bus 1 for each track. You should now have a new send knob for each channel assigned to the bus. Now all you need to do is raise these knobs for each track, and by doing so, your sending a portion of the sound (determined by how much knob you turn), to BUS 1 were it (A sub mix of the levels of eack track determined by the sum of their Send Knobs) will be mixed through the reverb and now play alongside the original DRY tracks. So you see all a bus is, is a output that can mix all the regular tracks (Like the main output), and the 8 (or 16, or how many ever you happen to have) Busses can in turn be further Sub mixed into the Final stereo output. This method is the prefeered way of mixing for most, because it allows you to save on CPU power, and sending all your tracks to a common reverb (or Delay or whatever), can give the entire song a better sounding image of actually being recorded live.
 
yea

Hmm. ook. So would it be recomeneded to mixdown through the mackie board, instead of using the bounce function? Im having mixed reviews here. But thanks a lot for your help, i think its making a lot more sense now!
 
You seem to be getting it. It is a little confusing at first and there is one main difference between the busses on a DAW and a Mixer.

On a Mixer the busses are your main outputs that you would send to a multitrack recorder or monitors in a live performance. You can also add effects to the group of tracks that are assigned to those busses.

On a DAW the busses work exactly the same way except that in a DAW you still need to assign an OUTPUT to a channel or a buss. That is the OUTPUT button above the volume slider in Logic. If you have a sound card with several outs they will all be available to assign those tracks or busses to. That determines what physical output those tracks or busses are going to go out on. That is how you organize your tracks for the mixdown in order to conserve plugin use and to be able to send your tracks outside of the DAW for external processing and mixing.

If you dont have any external devices and limited outputs on your soundcard then you wont see much benefit from mixing outside of your DAW. But that bounce function is still the worst way to do it.

I havent set up Logic to do this so maybe Atterion can tell you the exact settings. You want assign all your tracks to a buss or groups of busses. Then ultimately all your sub mixes and tracks need to be assigned to a single stereo buss. Then you want to record that buss in realtime, not with a digital 'bounce' function.

All of that is the Mixdown. Mastering refers to any EQ, compression and volume adjustments that you do to the stereo Mixdown file prior to burning to CD. You usually dont add any effects during this process.
 
For an analogy.

The tracks are little creeks that wander down through the mountains. The buss is a larger river that all the creeks run into. Eventually all the rivers (busses) will empty in a large lake (master buss/mixdown file). You then run the lake water through a treatment center (mastering) so is is fit for human comsumption (CD burning).

Hopefully that helped but now I'm getting thirsty.
 
hmm

Ok, yea that makes sense. So if i have 4 outputs on my delta card. I could assign 4 different tracks to differerent buss's, and have then all in seperate buss's in the mixing board, with 4 different cables? And then have all those for go back into the delta through one cable, and the master out buss, so they are recorded into one track? But why not just send all the sounds through one buss on the sound card, into one buss in the mixing board, then back into the delta through the main out buss on the mixing board? That is if your not changing the sounds at all on the mixing board. i guess if you have external efects you want to run the different tracsk through, you could have the effects set up to certain buss's in the mixing board, and have the tracks you want to add effects to go through those buss's, and the track you don't want the effects on going through seperate buss's, and then back into the the detla. Hmm.. ok, its making more sense. But If your not changing the sounds externally, and doing everythign with softwear, essentially, the tracks you send out could just go through one buss on the delta, one buss on the mixing board, and then the master buss out back into the delta, and be recorded into one track, the same as bouncing in logic, accept without actually using the bounce function (i guess you could also adjust the volume on the mixing board, and use the limited eqing on the board, although you could just change that in logic) Hmm, ok, but, it would be good to have this set up even if i don't have any external effects, because, i can add some later right? And even if im not chaning the sounds externally, its still a better way to mixdown than bouncing?
 
Too funny Tex.

Here is my routing for Logic 5:
Hardware-
Terratec EWS88MT-8 In/8 Out
Tascam TM-D1000 16 ch Mixer (Supports MIDI Machine Control and MIDI automation from Logic)

All Logic busses correspond to their respectively numbered Terratec output channel.

I send Drums out on Busses 1 and 2 (sub Mixed first in Logics Mixer from up to 16 Drum tracks (Kick, Snare, individual Toms etc.)
Guitars-Busses 3,4, and 5 (Electric and/or acoustic From DI, Mic'd, and Preamp channels)
Bass-Bus 6 (From DI, Mic'd and Preamp channels)
Vocals-Busses 7 and 8 (submixed from Usually 5 or less stereo channels)

Mixed externally and returned as a stereo track. Like I believe Tex said he does, I can Mix 8 Busses at once, Mixdowned to 2 and then repeat with remaining tracks.

Most of my Keyboards are either Premixed externally prior to recording or mixed entirely with in Logic (as many are sounds from VSTi's).

But possibilities are endless here. Of course you are always limited in routing schemes by the hardware you use (routing is very rarely an issue via software means). But even the most restrictive setups, combined with a little ingenuity can result in some spectacular results.

My advice to anyone is, buy the best equipment you can afford (Especially the upfront items-Mixer, Compressor, Preamp, Microphones). Don't settle for second best, if you can afford to go with the better items. Fortunately there are a lot of options now in the hardware business, especially a huge growth spurt in the field of front-end boxes that feature all the key components in one Affordable, DAW friendly box (Think DBX 376). And almost all boxes these days regardless of purpose or type support at least 1 or more of the many digital formats.
 
You've got it Ambi. Really it is the best way, and remember if you don't NEED to send a track out of the DAW, you can leave it right there and free up your external tracks. This is the fine line between the best of both worlds-The hardware world (limited by tracks and busses and usually nothing else), and the software world (limited by CPU, but usually offers way more tracks). Of course now we have some new toys to play on the market to. Something ProTools users have known for a longtome (I'm jealous), and that is dedicated PCI DSP processor cards like the UAD-1 or TC Powercore, which offer VST compatibilty and top notch effects, or further then that, complete packages like the Yamaha DS2416 (Nearly a classic by PC standards) and Creamware Luna 2. These systems offer it all (nearly anyways), Audio interface cards, dedicated PCI effects processors, and soft-synths, all designed to run next to your sequencer package of choice with-out putting a hit on your CPU.
 
hmm

ok that sounds good. But do you think the delta 44 would be good enough? It only has 4 outs (two of which i think would be needed for the monitoring speakers) So that may only leave me with 2 outputs! Would it be worth getting a different card? And do you think the Mackie 1402 would have enough channels? Any are there any external fx units you would recomend? I can do all the effects in logic, but i know sometimes effects can be much better in hardware form, and it would be cool to have one or two external running through the mixer, so i could have more of a hands on feel, and colour the mixdowns a little more. It would also justify the purchase of a better mixing board (mackie 1402 over the 1202), considering i would be using it for mixing down with effects.
 
hmm

Ive just been looking at the pictures of the delta 410 and 1010, and im quite disturbed. They don't even have a larger breakoutbox? Just just have a bunch of cables sticking out the back? Yuck! what a mess. Any comments on this?
 
You're obviously looking at the new Delta 1010LT. The Delta 1010 (not LT), utilizes a 19" rackmount interface.
 
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