Electrical outlets

[Michael Jones]

I don't even know how to ask this question.....

If you put an electric outlet in your studio wall, doesn't that just shoot your STC rating all to hell? I mean, thats a pretty big "hole" for the gang box. Even with dual wall and/or staggered stud construction.

Would it be better to put the outlets on the floor, (concrete slab) with conduit running under the slab, and risers comming up at "strategic" locations within the studio. The risers could be flush with the floor, and have like those covered brass plates on them. Like you see in retail stores.

 

[Alex W]

You've got a couple of options. Your concrete embed idea would certainly work but might be overkill since you'd probably need to run it all in conduit. If you're concernted about the wall plate penetrations, consider running everything in a surface mounted duct system. These can be fairly simple to work with and look better than standard conduit.

That all said, you can limit the impact of the in-wall boxes by sealing them off just like everything else. Caulk the wire entry ports to seal the box (note--this is most easily accomplished BEFORE installing your drywall, doh!), caulk around the gap between the box and your drywall, and get those elastomeric covers normally used for outdoor boxes to put underneath your receptacle cover plates.

Commercial studios have all kinds of things mounted in the walls of their isolation booths so it must be doable. Like everthing else, just pay attention to the details--and start working one of those squeeze balls so when it comes time your hands don't cramp up from the caulking gun.

Alex

 

[frederic]

Why not go surface mount? You could paint the conduit a contrasting color to the room for a techno look.

If its "home" space rather than "commercial" space, you can mount the wire on the wall under wire covers which look a little bit like moulding.

A friend of mine came up with an awesome idea for his live room, having the same issue as you.

He simply purchased thick chair rails, routed the insides to clear the wire, and ran the chair rail between each electrical box, putting all of that at chair rail height.

Looked darn good.

 

[Michael Jones]

...consider running everything in a surface mounted duct system.
Alex

Ahh, "I see", said the blind man!

Thanks for the help!

 

[Sennheiser]

You can also use flush mount wiring on the floor underneath your carpeting or tile.

I first saw this at a retail store I worked at. They came in to replace the tile floor with the large adhesive-backed carpet squares and that's when I first saw this system.

It's very flexible to route and to tap off of and the outlets are only about 1" above floor level.

 

[rambo]

Studio Rule One: You will always run short of power outlets...

In a big studio power is normally routed in the floor in the big cable ducts, then routed up in the racks, not in the walls.
So if you building concrete...go for large ducts and distribute in the room.

And make room for at least tree times the size of cables you planned from start...

 

[Michael Jones]

I like the idea of having them flush mounted in the concrete floor, and I'm going to persue that further. But at some point, there's a penetration from the slab to the outside breaker box. That penetration either comes up through the slab and inside the wall, or it goes out through the grade beam of the slab. Which would be better, not just from a studio point of view, but from a construction point of view as well?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Supply determines it

Hi Michael, I would think your electrical supply panel access will determine it. If your lines are buryied in a new slab/footing(perimeter foundation) with new exterior walls, then you can bring it to the supply via the walls. On the other hand, if the supply is close, I would run the conduit straight out through the footing with a short stub to connect an elbow/conduit to finish the route to the supply panel. At least this way your walls won't be comprimised by electrical. I would do the same at the console. Mine has
hollow legs that die into troughs in the floor for electrical, computer cat 5, spdif, 2 video lines, time code lines on one side, audio snakes on the other. Laying out the conduits in the troughs is a fun one. But it worked. Had to dismantle it all out about 3 years ago and stored all the floor and wall modules. Its still there waiting to be installed in my new place Another thing is a panel in the control room for electrical distribution post isolation transformer(toroidial distribution). Thats another animal. Different thread.
Also, lay out your diagram for conduits in the floor, cause you can't change your mind if the conduits are buried in concrete. But your Mine was a wood floating floor with the troughs built in with removable lids. Took a lot of planning and close tolerance construction, but it came out fantastic. Only this time, they get filled with sand. Can't wait to install it again. Only finish it this time. Well good luck with this one. Keep us informed of the progress!!
fitz

 

[sjoko2]

Either surface mount or duct underground

 

[Michael Jones]

I guess I should have clarified this, but if you haven't already figured it out, I'm talking about new construction.

I would think your electrical supply panel access will determine it. If your lines are buryied in a new slab/footing(perimeter foundation) with new exterior walls, then you can bring it to the supply via the walls. On the other hand, if the supply is close, I would run the conduit straight out through the footing with a short stub to connect an elbow/conduit to finish the route to the supply pane.

I plan on bringinng a new supply panel to the studio. So you suggest bringing the conduit out through the footing? Right?

I would do the same at the console. Mine has
hollow legs that die into troughs in the floor for electrical, computer cat 5, spdif, 2 video lines, time code lines on one side, audio snakes on the other.

So, you build these "troughs" into the slab, and do what? Put a steel plate over the top?

Another thing is a panel in the control room for electrical distribution post isolation transformer(toroidial distribution).

Are you suggesting an isolation transformer for the control room?
Is this really necessary if I plan on seperate circuits for each electrical loading zone? (i.e. control room, tracking room, interior lighting, HVAC/Mech)

Also, lay out your diagram for conduits in the floor, cause you can't change your mind if the conduits are buried in concrete.

I don't understand. The concrete slab on grade is the floor. Are you suggesting a floating floor over the concrete slab? I might do a floating floor in the drum room, but it's doubtful that will happen through out the studio as the dimensions are 30'X40'.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Clarification stuff

Hi Michael, say, its pretty hard to visuallize what a person is doing and try and help here with out drawing it. Which I can. But let me try and clarify a few things
First- are you usinging a sub panel for the studio/control room? Where and what type.
Is it going to be on an exterior wall? Outside or inside. Outside-Flush or surface mount. Inside, flush or surface mount.
Or is it in or flush mounted on the interior face of exterior wall. Or surface mounted. If interior, is this a double wall? If on an interior partition wall, again, flush or surface mount? Are you going to have a power filter device prior to the subpanel or after it? There are many options here, and each will determine how to stub your circuits out to the main, or subpanel, and or any filter devices, floor box's, studio lights, control room lights, equipment panels,
console location, etc. etc.
Second- have you prepared a load chart of anykind, or circuit distribution drawing showing all supply lines, breakers,circuits to lights, outlets, switches, etc. And have these been interpreted in a plan drawing of the proposed new construction? Are you going to have this inspected or are you doing this without permits? Are you doing the electrical work your self, or are you hiring a contractor? These type of conditions will all determine certain things, such as code in your local. Something allowed here, may not be allowed there, that is if your getting an inspection. I suggest if you do not get permits, you may void your homeowners insurance, but don't take my word on that. Electrical and the law is very strict where I live, and not being an electrical contractor, I feel as if I have already said more than I should regarding this. Let me know about these conditions above, and I may be able to help, within my own experience only. Certain things regarding this should not be left to just suggestions here.
By checking with your local building inspection dept., you will insure that your
on the right track with this stuff. If you are doing the work yourself, ask them
what you need to supply them with to obtain a permit. If no permit, your on your own, as I can only illustrate what I would submit to BID. And that cannot
be accepted as I am not licenced to do so. As a homeowner, I can submit my
own plans for approval, and they would approve or reject it, but they let you know why by asking you to show why you are doing things that code says do a different way. That way they arn't telling you what to do. They just approve or reject, according to code. Now, in a commercial building, at least here, you must have an electrical engineer prepare your electrical documents. So that being said, let us know what your planning here, and I'll try to help. Remember, this is NEW construction, so if you get caught without a permit, they
can make you tear it completely out, or delay your application for a permit for a LONG time. Been there. Done that.
fitz

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Had to take a break...

Ok, I'm back, so lets get on with things.......
to answer about the troughs/conduit.... Still with out knowing what your planning here is this what I percieve...your pouring a ground level slab. With a perimeter footing, correct?
Is this an add on, or seperate bldg? Is the control room slab going to be seperate from the studio slab? Is this going to be "room in a room" type construction? Do you have a plan drawn(sorry if that was dumb)and if so has it been posted here? It would help me see exatctly what it is your doing, but I'll still try to help.
Troughs: in concrete, john has a detail showing troughs and or conduits in a slab. I only can try and interpret them. First though, your original question was in regards to electrical outlets flush with a floor. A concrete floor. In the studio, I would percieve these for amps, keyboards, rack units etc. Probably along the wall studio perimeter, correct? OK, first, there is a probably a specific code, usually, that states where, outlet height,(in wall),how many per circuit, distance between on ea. wall etc. You are placing these boxes in concrete, and your thinking about the brass cover plates, with removable screw offs, correct? Well, I would check with your local BID on this. They may not allow it in residential construction, I CAN"T say. I DON"T know for sure. Only they can tell you if it meets code there. Now, I understand why you want to do this, so you wont have wall penetrations. But running the conduit requires a complete plan prior to pouring so all electrical is in place and stubbed out. And I am NO professional at this, so as to suggesting things, I'm only trying to percieve what your doing, and have told you things I might think about, or do, or have done. As to the concrete floor, by what youve said, this IS the floor. No floating rooms, no floating floors. Correct? I was trying to describe only what I had done in regards to layout my electrical, and some of the things you can do. I DID have a floating floor, with built in troughs, that condained 4 conduits on one side, and audio cables on the other. Each trough was lined with grounded sheet metal. In concrete, your slab will only be aprx. 4". Is this correct?
A trough in concrete, as Mr. Sayer shows at his SAE site,is shallow, appears to be aprx. 1 1/4" deep by 6"wide, with 1" x 1/4"deep rabits on ea. side to support probably a 1/4" steel plate. This appears to be for audio cables. Not electrical. He also shows conduit buried in the concete. For audio, I presume. As he shows his electrical wall outlets, on the wall construction page, being in the wall, below an acoustical absorber. Are you thinking about troughs? From what to what? How are you going to terminate the troughs, under rackmounts? And to the console? What types of signals will you be running in the troughs? These are justs questions that maybe you've already answered
and maybe not. Maybe I'm just blabbing away and your laughing like mad Let me know if you want me to continue, or buzz off, ok. This is a project that demands thourogh planning, and I'm willing to help if you need it. If not, have a great day.
fitz

 

[Michael Jones]

Well, you've given me a lot to think about Rick. I'll try to answer some of your questions, so you have a clearer idea of what I am hoping to accomplish.

First- are you usinging a sub panel for the studio/control room?

My main electric power is at the house. (about 30' away.) I was planning on tapping to the lead there, befor the meter, and running new underground conduit to the studio, up to a pannel, whith several new breakers, and a new additional meter, surface mounted, on the EXTERIOR of the studio.

Are you going to have a power filter device prior to the subpanel or after it?

I was planning on after it.

Second- have you prepared a load chart of anykind, or circuit distribution drawing showing all supply lines, breakers,circuits to lights, outlets, switches, etc. And have these been interpreted in a plan drawing of the proposed new construction?

Yes, and yes. The load chart however, is still being modified.

Are you going to have this inspected or are you doing this without permits?

I will definately obtain all permits necessary for construction.

Are you doing the electrical work your self, or are you hiring a contractor?

I will run the conduit, and pull the wire, but a qualified electrician will have to make the conection to the main. Local amendments to the UBC and UEC allow for this.

Still with out knowing what your planning here is this what I percieve...your pouring a ground level slab. With a perimeter footing, correct?

Correct! However; there is approximately 2 to 2 1/2 feet of grade differentiation from the front of the building to the rear, so a portion, at the rear, will have an exposed grade beam.

Is this an add on, or seperate bldg?

A seperate building.

Is the control room slab going to be seperate from the studio slab?

hmmm, no? I wasn't planning on it.

Is this going to be "room in a room" type construction?

Yes. Staggered studs for exterior walls, and room in room type for interior walls.

Do you have a plan drawn(sorry if that was dumb)and if so has it been posted here? It would help me see exatctly what it is your doing, but I'll still try to help.

Yes (attached in the next post.)

First though, your original question was in regards to electrical outlets flush with a floor. A concrete floor. In the studio, I would percieve these for amps, keyboards, rack units etc. Probably along the wall studio perimeter, correct?

Uh huh!

You are placing these boxes in concrete, and your thinking about the brass cover plates, with removable screw offs, correct? (CORRECT) Well, I would check with your local BID on this. They may not allow it in residential construction, I CAN"T say. I DON"T know for sure. Only they can tell you if it meets code there.

Well, I didn't see anything forbidding it in the local amendments to the UEC.

But running the conduit requires a complete plan prior to pouring so all electrical is in place and stubbed out.

I understand that. I feel confident that a plan can be done for this prior to concrete work.

As to the concrete floor, by what youve said, this IS the floor. No floating rooms, no floating floors. Correct?

Yes, the drum room will have a floating floor, but thats the only room that will.

In concrete, your slab will only be aprx. 4". Is this correct?

Yes.

...He (John Sayers) also shows conduit buried in the concete. For audio, I presume. As he shows his electrical wall outlets, on the wall construction page, being in the wall, below an acoustical absorber. Are you thinking about troughs? From what to what?

Actually I was thinking of conduit under the slab, comming up and terminating under the console, and under the rack (as well as other places.)

Let me know if you want me to continue, or buzz off, ok. This is a project that demands thourogh planning, and I'm willing to help if you need it.

I appreciate ALL the help you are willing to give.
Michael

 

[Michael Jones]

Here's a conceptual floor plan of the entire studio.
The "foyer" as shown on the plan may have to be eliminated or re-designed to be incorporated into the inside of the building. Rear set-backs from the property line to the building are proving to be a limiting factor.
Oh, I forgot to mention: I'm working with an architect on this plan. I'll do all the drawings in CAD, and she will review the plans for completness, and constructability, as well as review the spatial relations, connection details, wall sections...etc.
It is imperitive that this proposed structure be "faithful" to the existing architecture of my home. I don't want to end up with a 1200 sq. ft. building that looks like it doesn't belong there, and sticks out like a sore thumb!

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Duh!!I forgot this drawing!

Nice plan Michael, now I remember. Looks like you have things in control. I don't know about there, but here, the building has to be 160 ft. away to add a second meter. Have you detailed sections at the walls,doors, floors, ceiling,acoustics etc yet? Or your fixtures? All of theses sections/details may be required at BID. They are here. How about your hvac-ducting plan? Reflected ceiling plan? Structural? Just a few things to think about to save time in the first place, when you submit. If you have to resubmit 3 times, before they approve it, it could take a lot of time. But again, I don't have any idea of what the building inspection dept. there requires, but your architect should know. One suggestion, I would use troughs to the console, for audio cable ease of change, modifications, oversite, etc. in your audio plan, but I have seen 4" conduits in a larger studio. But for lines to and from your rackmounts to the console, I would use troughs The forms are easy. Supporting them in place is another animal. Once you have the location(center lines of troughs)and the length measured, the form is probably just a 2x6(1 1/2" x 5 1/2") at the length needed, with a piece of 1/4" ply(3/4"ply for wood cover), x 7 1/2" wide by the same length,screwed to the 2 x6 on center. The ply creates the rabits in the concrete for a steel or wood cover. What kind of flooring in the control room. That will actually determine what and how your covers are made. Mine were oak to match oak flooring, but that was a small area around the console for chairs. You might want a termination box, say 8"x 6"x 2" deep at each end, but that Is up to you to detail how you want to do with this. One side should have electrical for your mixer etc, but how you plan on that from the floor to your console power is up to you. You may want to forget this idea anyway. The other thing is the studio/control room partition wall. What type of wall construction here? Offset stud? You might want to consider a gap in the concrete on the studio side of the wall, and maybe a footing under that wall. But its all in what you are tring to do. Are you using multiple layers anywhere? These are a few of the things, that left undetailed, can cause problems at construction time because they were not thought out. Like door jambs, the control room window, thresholds, ducts, switch and outlet boxes, speaker mounts, soffits, absorbers,diffusers etc. Look at every detail you can think of, and draw it in plan section/detail, vertical section/detail, and sometimes even in longitudinal section/detail. Something might look ok in plan, but not work in longitude. Work with REAL dimensions. I see people all the time assume things are this or that, but when they get to a point, it doesn't work because they didn't want to take the time to THINK about it or measure it. I go through it all the time, cause I am a detailer. Just ask if theres anything I can do for you. Johns SAE site is great for a lot of the construction plans,but alot of details are up to you as your plans/materials/details will probably differ. Keep us updated.
Say, tell me about your sliding glass doors. Thats something I've never seen the details of how to seal these up. Good luck and have fun!
fitz

 

[Michael Jones]

I don't know about there, but here, the building has to be 160 ft. away to add a second meter.

That may be true here too, I need to look into it. I would like to have a second meter, if just for tax reasons.

Have you detailed sections at the walls,doors, floors, ceiling,acoustics etc yet? Or your fixtures?

Not yet.

How about your hvac-ducting plan? Reflected ceiling plan? Structural?

HVAC- I was planning on mounting the blower and furnace in the "attic" of the studio, and having a scuttle in the ceiling for access. The compressor would be pad mounted outside.

Reflected ceiling plan? Structural?

The reflected ceiling plan I'm working on. The only structural I can thing of would be the slab and foundation. I have some soil bores done for a Plastisity Index, and I was thinking, I could take those, and the nominal dimensions to a contractor, and have them just give me a "turn-key" foundation.??

What kind of flooring in the control room?

I'll have wood parque around the console area, and some industrial carpeting in the rest.

The other thing is the studio/control room partition wall. What type of wall construction here? Offset stud? You might want to consider a gap in the concrete on the studio side of the wall, and maybe a footing under that wall.

I was planning on staggered stud there, with 2 layers of sheet-rock on each side?? A gap in the foundation? With what? Some kind of elastomeric band between them? What if one "foundation" moves or settles slightly? Then windows will break and doors wont open. maybe?

I always work in real dimensions. John has some good pictures of sliding glass door on his site. They used them in the "Left Bank" studio.

After obtaining permits, I invision the construction sequence like this:
Foundation
Form work for slab/foundation.
Conduit/trough placement.
Steel placement.
Water/waste water line installation.
Inspect for leaks.
Pour concrete and set anchor bolts.

Framing/Roofing
Begin Framing of walls.
Begin Roof/truss framing.
Finish out exterior walls.
Finish out roofing.
(studio is now "weathered in").

Interior
Set/erect HVAC
Route ducts.
Set interior dry wall.
Tape and float.

Electrical
Run/pull wiring thru conduits, and connect to gang boxes.
Set all outlets and fixtures.
Connect to main and power up.

Finish-out
Paint and polish!

Thats a VERY elementary construction sequence I know. But I imagine it will happen something like that.

I am also acting as the general contractor on this project. I plan on doing most of the carpentry myself. (except for the roofing)

Lots more drawing and planning to do.
I would hope to start construction sometime around March of '03.

 

[goodyong]

Good power socket!

http://www.shsap.com/en

 

[Rod Gervais]

For what it's worth,

In pro studios I do not run the power wiring below the slab, this space I devote to low voltage wiring for the studio.

I run the line voltage high in the walls to avoid creating issues with 60 cycle noise on my low voltage wiring running to the gear.

I like to use strip outlets that are totally isolated from any low voltage connections (refer to the picture of the iso both - you can see the plug connections and the connections for mics, instruments and headphones).

If one is going to use standard outlets this is not a problem.

Tests have proven that in double wall construction there is no significant loss of isolation when outlets are not run back to back.

DO NOT CAULK THE POINT WHERE WIRES ENTER THE OUTLET BOX. This is not in acceptance with the NEC.

If you wish to use outlet boxes and want peace of mind about your isolation - use putty-pads - they give an additional 40dB (weighted) isolation and are code compliant.

If you do run low and high voltage wiring beneath the slab - keep them as far apart as possible - and don't ever run them side by side (parallel) to one another - if they have to cross - make sure to do it at 90 degree angles - this will minimize possible interference.

Rod