ECM8000 A/B Comparison

  • Thread starter Thread starter Michael Jones
  • Start date Start date
Well,
Malmsjö was a Swedish piano builder that 1843 founded a piano factory in Göteborg, on the west coast of Sweden. The factory was in business up to a few years ago, and has produced quite a few not so bad grand pianos. Actually Sweden had quite a lot of piano factories once, but now there are none left; the German and Japanese competition was a bit too fierce.

Here are links to a few pictures of nice-looking Malmsjö pianos:
http://www.musikmuseet.se/samlingar/banan.html
http://www.arrenius.se/images/tsar_flygel.jpg
The piano just above was built in 1908 and is right now for sale at Arrenius piano in Stockholm. Anyone interested? :D
/BasPer
 
Michael - based on your style of play you might want to look at Schimmel pianos. I sold them years ago and they are a great hand made german piano but they are less expensive than Steinway and the others.

Schimmels have a very delicate tone a little too bright for some people but I always liked them. The also have Renner actions for a nice touch.
 
Shimmels are awesome--very musical. Definitely not as dark and warm as the Bosendoers and Steinways but not as bright as Yamaha. And they are not cheap, either! Another European brand that is gaining recognition and popularity are the Petrofs--very classic sound.
 
Mr. Jones,

Not sure how ya did it but the ECM clip has some serious phase problems. That's exactly why the TLM103 clip sounds better. The TLM clip has a much wider stereo separation whereas the ECM clip has very little to none.

This is not a problem with the microphone but with either mic placement or even a bad mic cable out of phase.

If you playback the TLM clip (clip b) then press the "mono" button on your console or application you'll hear an immediate reduction in stereo field and a resulting "dullness".

However playing back the ecm8000 in mono result in no sound change from the original stereo clip. This tells me the recording is out of phase or at least has some severe phase problems.

Try an X-Y pattern with the ECMs or at least another position...and make sure the cables are wired right (pin 1=grnd, pin 2=+, pin 3=-).

Upon listening to both clips in mono (comparing apples to apples) the TLM was definitley "hyped". Highs were higher and lows were larger than life. the ECM8000s were fairly unhyped and accurate sounding compared to the TLM.

Personally I like both mics. Just depends on the sound I'm going for. If I wanted an accurate representation of the piano in this example I'd definitely choose the ECM. If I wanted larger than life it'd be the TLM.


Also I noticed the volume of the ECM was attenuated quite a bit. So in order to compare aplles to apples again the gain of the TLM should be reduced about 3-4 dB or the gain of the ecm sample increased 3-4 dB.

The fact that the TLM is louder will make it appear to sound "better".

Another technique would be to place one ECM very close to the source and another a few feet away. Then hard pan the the mics L-R to give better stereo separation.

These mics (ECM8000) work very well for vocal mics in a choral setting. Especially when hung overhead several feet apart. These are not "in your face" mics like the TLM. These mics excel in distance micking placement in my opinion. That's why they serve well in calbrating rooms for modal frequencies and reduction of feedback.

OdeeOdeeOh
 
TexRoadkill said:
Michael - based on your style of play you might want to look at Schimmel pianos.
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Actually I have. And I like them a lot! Austrian made aren't they?? But there's no dealer for them here, so the 3 or 4 that I have had priviledge to play were used. Not that used is a bad thing for a higher end piano. Also, I won't have a piano less that 6'-6" (actually, I wont have one less than 7'-2" now!) and I believe the Schimmels I played were like 6'-2". A littler smaller than what I wanted. I'm REALLY happy with my 7'-2" Boston. At some point, years from now, I may trade up, but it'll most likely be a Steinway when I do.
 
Michael,I think the ECM clip sounds pretty good,its tough to compare an inexpensive omni mic to a pretty expensive cardoid mic.I'm not sure if you used the same placement on the ECM's as on the 103's but from what I understand(read:no real experience)xy placement will not convey a stereo image w/ omnis,try an AB placement with the mics at least 2 feet apart.

I was hoping someone would volunteer an a/b of the ECM's with the Earthworks omni or something along those lines but I guess if you have the Earthworks you probably aren't going to buy the Behringers.

I would like to hear an A/B of the ECM's and the Shures if you have the time.

I really liked your music and your playing!!
 
Randy Yell said:
Michael,I think the ECM clip sounds pretty good,its tough to compare an inexpensive omni mic to a pretty expensive cardoid mic.I'm not sure if you used the same placement on the ECM's as on the 103's but from what I understand(read:no real experience)xy placement will not convey a stereo image w/ omnis,try an AB placement with the mics at least 2 feet apart.

I was hoping someone would volunteer an a/b of the ECM's with the Earthworks omni or something along those lines but I guess if you have the Earthworks you probably aren't going to buy the Behringers.

I would like to hear an A/B of the ECM's and the Shures if you have the time.

I really liked your music and your playing!!
Click to expand...

Thanks Randy.
The mics were placed this way in both examples:
One was set about 15" behind the pin block and about 8" above the strings around 1-1/3 octaves below middle C. The other was about 9" behind the pin block and about 4" above the strings around 1-1/3 octaves above middle C. The mic faces were angled in about 12 degrees toward each other. The lid was in the full up position.
The mics run to an ART PRO MPA Tube mic pre-amp, and then into a "Nuendo" 8 i/o 24 bit A/D-D/A converter, and recorded at 24 bit in "Nuendo".
 
I was gonna ask if the other mikes were Cardioid as that would explain the diff in the stereo image but now I know. Also was there Air Con or somfing going on in the background? I enjoyed the thread.
 
Randy Yell said:
Michael,I think the ECM clip sounds pretty good,its tough to compare an inexpensive omni mic to a pretty expensive cardoid mic.I'm not sure if you used the same placement on the ECM's as on the 103's but from what I understand(read:no real experience)xy placement will not convey a stereo image w/ omnis,try an AB placement with the mics at least 2 feet apart.

I was hoping someone would volunteer an a/b of the ECM's with the Earthworks omni or something along those lines but I guess if you have the Earthworks you probably aren't going to buy the Behringers.

I would like to hear an A/B of the ECM's and the Shures if you have the time.

I really liked your music and your playing!!
Click to expand...
----------------------------

I would love to hear an a/b of the ecm's and the earthworks. That would pretty much put the issue to rest. :)

Michael, do you have any Oktava MC012's lying around? That would make for a much more relevant a/b with the TLM's.

Great playing! And thanks for taking the time to post the comparisons!
 
Kudos to Slack for correctly identifying the Behringers.

However, Mr. Jones, your challenge now is to record the same piece with the omnis and have the clip sound 90% as good as it did with the Neumanns. It can be done! Find the place that the piano sounds best to your *ears* in the room (regardless of where that is), and try an A-B recording with the ECM 8000s from there.

I've yet to hear a piano that sounds good with my head 8" above the strings. Cardioids can lull us into laziness in positioning.

And THANK YOU for this very useful demonstration. I wish more people would illustrate with sound clips as you've done. More! More!

Best wishes,

Mark H.
 
And from the DPA "microphone university," these suggestions for a starting point using omnis:

"By adjusting the distance to the piano and the exact placement next to the piano, the amount of ambience and the timbre of the instrument can be tuned. Placements around the mid of the piano 1 to 2 meters away are often preferred. The microphones are normally spaced between 40 to 60 cm and the stereo image is adjusted, so the pianist is to the left, of course. The height of the stereo boom is quite low, 1.2 m to 1.5 m above the boundary on which the piano is placed. By pointing the microphones to the open lid of the piano, the sound reflecting on the inner side of the lid will be brightened up and a beautiful depth will be added to the recording."

The author also notes that a grand piano should be recorded in a concert hall, but we'll skip that part for now. :-)

Mark H.
 
Mark H. said:
I've yet to hear a piano that sounds good with my head 8" above the strings. Cardioids can lull us into laziness in positioning.

Best wishes,

Mark H.
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Thats true, but how many singers sound good with your ear 2" away from their mouth? I think we mic in close proximity to make up for deficiencies in the listening environment; and as sensitive as mics are, they aren't our ears, so judicial placement is critical.
I've tried micing this grand in nearly every imaginable way, and this technique seems to yeild the best results. If I place the mics outside of the piano, at the "bend" in the grand's case, it sounds too distant. I've even tried placing mics under the grand, as someone once mentioned to me. LD Cardioids may yield us into complacency, but, at least in my situation, even a very slight movement from the afore mentioned technique results in a very different audio spectrum. But, hey, like most of us here, I'm learning! If anyone lives in Austin, Texas, and wants to give me some training in the techniques of micing a grand piano, well, the studio is open!:)
I also do believe that one could get those omnis to sound nearly 90% as good as the TLM's. Careful placement, and proper EQ-ing could get you there.
I haven't forgotten about the additional A/B comparison using the omnis and a medium size condensor either. I'll try and get to that (ECM's and Shure SM81's) before the end of this week.
~Michael~
P.S. I took down the test files from my site, so if you didn't get a chance to hear them, and are really interested, e-mail me and I'll send them to you. custom-music@austin.rr.com
 
Mark H. said:
And from the DPA "microphone university," these suggestions for a starting point using omnis:

"By adjusting the distance to the piano and the exact placement next to the piano, the amount of ambience and the timbre of the instrument can be tuned. Placements around the mid of the piano 1 to 2 meters away are often preferred. The microphones are normally spaced between 40 to 60 cm and the stereo image is adjusted, so the pianist is to the left, of course. The height of the stereo boom is quite low, 1.2 m to 1.5 m above the boundary on which the piano is placed. By pointing the microphones to the open lid of the piano, the sound reflecting on the inner side of the lid will be brightened up and a beautiful depth will be added to the recording."

The author also notes that a grand piano should be recorded in a concert hall, but we'll skip that part for now. :-)

Mark H.
Click to expand...

Using OMNI's. That's a good point Mark, thanks for the info. I'm going to try that!
I just recently purchased an RCA 77DX, which is an omni, and can't wait to try it out, so any more info you have re: Omni micing techniques, I'd love to hear.
Of course, I only have one, so it would be a mono recording.... unless..... I could record one track, copy it, delay it, pan for stereo... but would that yield a true stereo image, or would it be more like....Dual Mono for lack of a better term?
 
Hi Michael,

Thank you for your intelligent and thoughtful responses. By A-B, I didn't mean (what we normally think of as) comparison testing, but the technique of pointing the two omnis in exactly the same direction (toward the piano), with both mic holders clamped to a cross-bar that holds the mics at the same horizontal height and keeps them perfectly parallel to each other. By varying the distance between them (from about the width of a human head up to 18 inches or so), the stereo image is created by the subtle differences in the arrival of signals.

I've thought of it as a distant micing technique, but apparently you can use it up close as well. If you get the mics too far apart using A-B, you risk creating an artificially enlarged sonic image on playback (like a cello that's as wide as your living room). Since it's pretty easy to set up the mics this way, it also lets you reposition them fairly easily until you find the sound you like, because you retain their position with regards to each other and move them as a unit.

Personally, I would LOVE to hear a mono recording of grand piano with your new/old RCA ribbon! I much prefer a good monaural recording to a sloppy stereo recording. In fact, one of my favorite "tricks" is to play a solid older classical monaural recording for visiting audiophiles. Straight dual mono, of course, puts a rock-solid image right between the speakers on playback, and since most people haven't heard monaural recordings for awhile, they easily mistake it for "great" stereo imaging! No need to trick it up with delay for me.

Also, since you're set up, would you consider doing one more experiment for me? It's a technique that sometimes works with playback, and I'm curious if it would have any use at the front end as well. And that is to create a miniature "room" environment around your microphone (thinking particularly of the RCA). For instance, having someone hold a curved section of highly sound-absorbent material around the mic to simulate a dead room, or a hard piece of curved material to create an intentionally reflective backdrop (such as the white plastic diffusers about 2 x 4 feet that are used to cover fluorescent light fixtures and cost about $6 each). Just curious if it would be useful or simply stupid!

Grand piano is always a bitch. I can see why some people give up and slap a PZM mic on the inside of the lid and take whatever they get.

I look forward to hearing more of your tracks!

Best wishes,

Mark H.
 
Mark H. said:
Hi Michael,


Grand piano is always a bitch. I can see why some people give up and slap a PZM mic on the inside of the lid and take whatever they get.

I look forward to hearing more of your tracks!

Best wishes,

Mark H.
Click to expand...
I have a PZM Mic too, but, the signal from this mic is SO HOT! I don't like using it at all. Give me a few days and I'll try these other experiments for you as well.
I don't know if you caught this in one of the other threads here, but this is a recording of said piano using the close miced TLM technique. http://artists3.iuma.com/site-bin/streammp3.m3u?190193
I think the results were pretty good.
 
Originally posted by Michael Jones I just recently purchased an RCA 77DX, which is an omni, and can't wait to try it out, so any more info you have re: Omni micing techniques, I'd love to hear.
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Damn, I'm starting to sound like the microphone police. The RCA 77DX is NOT an omni - it's a multi-pattern ribbon mic that used an ingenious arrangement of mechanical shutters and a labrynth to go from Omni (marked O for Omnidirectional) to Cardioid (marked U for Unidirectional) to Figure 8 (marked B for Bipolar). One of the best microphones ever made.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Damn, I'm starting to sound like the microphone police. The RCA 77DX is NOT an omni - it's a multi-pattern ribbon mic that used an ingenious arrangement of mechanical shutters and a labrynth to go from Omni (marked O for Omnidirectional) to Cardioid (marked U for Unidirectional) to Figure 8 (marked B for Bipolar). One of the best microphones ever made.
Click to expand...
Thanks Harvey, for that important clarification. But you can see how I, a mere eleve, could easily make the mistake, can't you? (Please say yes.)
 
Hi Michael,

Thanks for the clip -- it sounds VERY good!

I should probably clarify that I'm pushing you to learn (and then teach the rest of us) better technique with your omnis, not criticizing your use of the TLMs (although I admit my comment about sticking my head in the piano was intended as a prod).

The site I quoted above (about omni placement suggestions for classical grand piano) goes on to say the following about other styles of music (which also validates the good technique you've developed on your own with the cardioids):

"Two extremely successful stereo set-ups using directional microphones inside a grand piano are mentioned following:

1: ORTF stereo set-up approximately 30 cm over the strings at the mid frame. The microphones are pointed 45° downwards and at the pianist.

2: Two parallel cardioid microphones spaced 60 cm and placed over the mid hammers pointing 45° downwards and at the pianist.

Please note that the sound pressure level inside a concert grand piano can exceed 130 dB SPL peak 20 cm over the strings. So be careful when choosing microphone types."

I look forward to hearing more from you.

Best wishes,

Mark H.
 
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