Ears

  • Thread starter Thread starter Layla Nahar
  • Start date Start date
Its simply amazing. In this electronics oriented world, with tuners, cell phones, hi rez tv..etc. you would think people would learn something. I see guitarists all the time who tune up the "A" string to their tuners, and call it 440. What a joke. No wonder they can't figure out why all that money they spent on Absorbers isn't working for most of their guitars frequency range.
fitZ
 
fitZ2 said:
Hello ahuimanu, I am NOT an expert on theory, but here is the SIMPLE explanation of the 60 Chord system.
fitZ
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fitZ,

Thank you VERY MUCH for that detailed explanation! I appreciate it!

:-)
 
Thank you VERY MUCH for that detailed explanation! I appreciate it!
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No problem. If I can open ONE musicians eyes and ears, then I have repaid my debt to Mr. Evans. I hope it helps you.
fitZ
 
Great link to "History of Pitch, " MSHilarious. I see that the 440Hz A was adopted by the American Standards Association (now ANSI), which is a little different from "an Act of Congress." Whatever. It's clear that a standard really didn't matter too much before recording technology grew up a bit. A look at ANSI's website seems to indicate they have progressed beyond the tuning fork biz*.

If anyone here ever tries to play along with records, you will have noticed that it was only fairly recently (1955, say) that the musicians in the studio seem to have arrived at "concert pitch." People are still arguing about what Robert Johnson tuned to!
__________
* film 'speed', optic device standards, etc
 
I only have a few fixed pitch instruments: a couple of bamboo flutes, and the chanter for my bagpipes. Generally I tune to the bagpipes, or the A=440 tone on my metronome. Oddly I've never checked them against each other.

Also a handy pitch is a dial tone. The problem is I always forget if it's an F or F# . . . pretty sure it's F.

Yep, looked it up, it's F (and the third above, but that matters little for a reference tone).
 
Oddly I've never checked them against each other.

Better not. Then you'll NEVER know if you're in tune.
 
lpdeluxe said:
People are still arguing about what Robert Johnson tuned to!
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I think he just tuned to his own voice. I am still amazed that if you ask most drummers, they will tune to "what sounds good" instead of tuning a C# or whatever.
 
I tune my drums by each song I record, and I don't think I'm alone there.
 
fitZ2 said:
An Octave can be divided into an arbitrary quantity of tones. I say arbitrary, because in other cultures, the octave is divided into many different divisions, based on emotions, history, religion, culture, myth and other arbitrary reasons. Like in India, I believe the Octave is divided into over 100 tones.
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This is only kind of true. Even though there are many (I don't remember exactly how many) more divisions of the octave in Indian theory, it is not really a matter of have (for instance) 100 different notes. Their division of the octave into so many units has to do with trying to find a universal solution (or more accurately, a different solution for each situation) to the problems of intonation. In western theory, we have always tried to find a way to eliminate the need to retune the instrument to a particular key, most recently with the concept of Even Temperament. In India, the idea of retuning your instrument for each key is essential, and one of the most basic concepts of their whole system of theory. The knobs sticking out of the side of a sitar’s neck are there to move the frets, and allow you to tune each fret.

Or at least, that is how my customers who are knowledgeable about Indian music put it. I am far from being an expert in Indian music.

But just basically, every culture has basically used a 12 step division of the octave. Now, how they divide it is not always the same, and they do not all use the same ways of organizing it (the basic scale in China is pentatonic, though not tuned the way we tune a pentatonic scale), and some cultures have some "specialized" extra notes (some African tribes have a not between a perfect fifth and a tritone), but the basic division is into twelve roughly equal tones.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Oh yeah, and so as to not TOTALLY highjack the thread; the only way to train your ear is to constantly PRACTICE. Find a song you like, and learn it by ear. No matter how long it takes you, figure it out by yourself. If you have a problem with a particular chord, ask for help from someone more knowledgeable, but do most of it yourself. Eventually you will get it. I know guys who have done so much of this that they can basically learn any songs chord structure on the first or second listen. You don't need to worry about that, however. Just practice and it will come.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Our 12-tone scale is based on the mathematic relationship of the harmonic series, going back to Pythagoras. He noticed that a plucked string will change its pitch at predictable intervals when you shorten its length: for example, the basic interval is the octave: halve the length of a string, and it goes up one octave in pitch. From there he worked out the other relationships that gave us the 5th, 4th (an inverted 5th) and so on until all the notes were accounted for. Which notes are given the most prominence varies from culture to culture, but the harmonic series is the same for everybody. Note that Pythagoras didn't "invent" the scale: he "discovered" it. I would think he based his work on the existing music. I can't imagine that he came running out of his shop, yelling "Everybody has to change their scales!" It's inherent in the way vibrating bodies (in his case, strings, but reeds and other instruments work in analogous ways) work.
 
fitZ2 said:
No problem. If I can open ONE musicians eyes and ears, then I have repaid my debt to Mr. Evans. I hope it helps you.
fitZ
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def. more than one!

thx from my end as well...


... gil evans?

cheers
alfred
 
Hey lpdelux, if you don't mind me asking, where you at in "deep East Texas"? I lived in Corpus Christy when I was a kid. I'd like to see the gulf again if I could. I live in Coos Bay Oregon right now. What a contrast :D Say, being from Texas, do you like Western Swing? Just curious. Most players I've met don't know what it is, and if they do, they think its corny. Little do they know ;) Although, I just moved up here from Sacramento Calif. There was an old club a couple of blocks from my house that Bob Wills owned in the 50's. Quite a few players stayed in Sac when it closed. I got to meet and play with a few. Tiny Moore even had a music store there for a while. What a monster player. Him and another cat from those days had a dual electric mandolin band. What a sound. Twin mandolins, twin fiddles(actually 4 fiddles when Tiny and the other guy would trade off to fiddles :eek: ), steel....crap, could those guys play. I loved it. They played almost every other week at the Western swing society meets. The house band for the society was run by a local bass player by the name of Truit Cunninham. Another monster guitarist was smokin' Jimmy Rivers. Him and Eldon Shamblin used to have a twin guitar thing goin on. Ole Eldon sure played the shit out of that green strat though. Damn, wish I had a handle on those comps. Anyway, I was just sayin HOWDY!!
fitZ
 
do you like Western Swing?

What a coincidence: I just spent the last couple of days transferring "Bob Wills and His Texas Playboys Live In Concert" from vinyl to CD. I just pulled the jacket out and looked at it, and despite 2 full pages of liner notes by a musicologist PhD, there's not a word about musician's credits or where it was recorded! I guess when you're that smart the details don't matter. It's a classic, anyhow, with San Antonio Rose, Beaumont Rag and a new one to me, La Golondrina, a very pretty waltz. I know what you mean about corny: many years ago, in N California (Mendocino) I was listening to ol Bob with some friends and at the first "yeehaw" one young lady said, "Is this some kind of a joke?" Not having listened to him for several years, I got a fresh impression. Tight rhythm section, soloists who knew no fear: apparently Mr Wills would take it into his head that he wanted a fiddle solo (or whatever), would point his bow at the person selected, and off they'd go into an improvisation. The Playboys were always full of hot players. The ones you mentioned, and I believe Johnny Gimble played with them too. The rhythms are sounding dated, but they were for dancing, not pogoing. He's still a hot number around here.

I'm 'way North of Corpus, in Nacogdoches. We're closer to Shreveport than any big Texas city (unless you count Tyler).

From your references to Bill Evans I get the impression you're a keyboard player. (As an aside, several years ago, a friend who was also a gifted pianist -- he taught music at the local state U -- came over and we listened to some Bill Evans on CD. About midway through the second song, he said "you've got a rattle in your speaker." I listened, and sure enough....Fortified with some Guiness stout, we disassembled the speaker [a giant PA cab with a 15" woofer], braced it with some 3/4" dowel he happened to have in his car, and listened again. The rattle was still there. After several more attempts we gave up trying to fix it. At last he wended his say home, having borrowed the CD. An hour later he called: "The rattle's on the recording!")
 
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From your references to Bill Evans I get the impression you're a keyboard player.
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Nope, just a geetar picker :p Me and keys don't mix. I learned the 60 chord system from Bill Evans book on improvisation. Man, if I'd only been 20 yrs younger, I might have finished it :D So you were out in Mendecino huh? Ever run into a player by the name of Bill Conners? He was over there for a while working with Chick Corea. Monster player.
The rhythms are sounding dated, but they were for dancing, not pogoing. He's still a hot number around here.
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Yea, but I still dig that stuff. Try to play some of those comps. :eek: Chord changes from hell on some of it. Most of the players of western swing in Sac, eat Jazz players for breakfast. Smokin mothas! Jimmy Rivers was absolutely incredible. He even put out a couple of jazz albums himself. Well, thanks for the reply LP. Always nice to meet a fellow Western Swing fan.
fitZ
 
"Dated" in comparison. It's easy to dismiss music from other eras...until you try to play it! I spent the evening with my current project, playing Dobro and bass on a bunch of acoustic-oriented songs...chops is chops. There have been more "sophisticated" pickers humbled by "hilbillies" than vice-versa. "Chord changes from hell?" Amen! My stepson & I worked out "San Antonio Rose". It's about as simple as, say, "Stardust."

Any theory you learn is to your benefit. There are a zillion ways of explaining it, and a zillion ways of playing it, but the theory is right there in front of you all along.
 
fitZ2 said:
I'm no theory expert, but excuse me? If a person ear trains to the diatonic scales, and then reads and plays from roman numeral notation as shown( I, IV, V ) for a blues...... :eek: :confused:NOT!! A blues is based on dominant 7ths. This implys all the scale tone chords are extended to a seventh. The only roman numeral that is a dominant seventh is a V. I and IV are major sevenths. Johnny B Goode would sure sound wierd using MAJOR SEVENTHS. fitZ
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:D

Ain't that the truth!

What's really funny is I used to do a tune for laughs called 'Clear the House Boogie) which predominantly featured Maj 7ths in a blues tune format, complete with 6/8 and everything!

This is what happens when you start on a reply with the intention of just writing a little to get the basic info out - and then decide to expound without re-reading what you wrote before.

But hopefully it was a little help to someone.

:o
 
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