Early Rode Microphones NT1 & NT2

[witzendoz]

Hi,

I started this thread as there was a discussion on another thread about mic distance from a guitar cab and I said that my early NT1 mics had an internal pad switch. I was then asked about serial numbers and details.

So instead of hijacking the other thread I started this one under microphones as I thought you may find it interesting.

I bought my first Rode mic in Rode's early days as a wholesaler I know had been sent a NT1 to try out. He gave it to me and I would not give it back so I had to buy it. The price I can't remember but it was a lot cheaper than anything on the market that sounded anywhere near as good. I got the second NT1 when traveling to Melbourne to a trade show, Allen's Music had it on special so I grabbed it. They only had 1. Both my Nt1's don't seem to have a serial number, they also look like almost pre-mass production versions, almost hand made. They are also the same shape as the NT2 (which the later NT1's were not) which when later was released made Rode an international name. A bit of Rode history.

When I heard about the NT2 coming out I bought an early one serial No: 5330 dated 9/9/96.

I always loved rode mics and all 3 of these have served me well, the NT1's and NT2 have been used as vocal, drum overheads, guitar cabs, bass cabs, double bass, acoustic guitar, if it sounds good I use them.

I hope you enjoy the pics: Pic 1&2 The early NT1's the oldest on the left which has a strange CR-3A written on it, the other odd thing is that you address the mic from the side opposite to Rode (back side) the NT2 is the other way round. Pic 3 the internal -10db (opps -8db) pad switch, pic 4 bass roll off switch.

By the way does everyone get the Rode joke? Rode NT1 = Rodent 1.

Cheers

Alan

 

[witzendoz]

More early NT1 photos and photos of my early NT2.

Cheers

Alan.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Wow, your NT1s are entirely different from mine, inside and out. I thought I got mine quite early (sometime in '99 at the latest), but apparently not early enough. They have the ugly Microsoft Gray (as I put it) cylinder and even uglier screen that looks like an escapee from a chain link fence company, that was common on even later models, with the serial number stamped right on the outside of the cylinder. The circuit board much more resembles the mass-produced look of you NT2 and looks nothing at all like the one-step-away-from-wirewrap design of yours.

I gotta be honest also and say that I never did care all that much for the sound I got from them; high-midrangey and harsh. Every mic has it's uses, no matter what it sounds like, and I imagine the same thing would be true with these, but I'll be damned if I found it yet. I imagine yours probably sound much different.

I promised you in the other thread that I'd post pics of mine as well, and I will. It's late here tonight as of this writing, and frankly I'm too damn tired. I'll get those pics taken and up here tomorrow.

G.

 

[witzendoz]

Hi Glen,

To be honest the sound of the early NT1 and the Early NT2 is identical, the only difference between the 2 models is that the NT2 has than Omni mode and the pad / bass roll off switches on the outside of the mic.

I have never heard a later NT1, but I would have thought that they would have been a good mic. What other mics are you comparing yours too? Just to give me an idea what you are experiencing.

I have done some great vocal takes with all 3 of these mics over the years, no real problems all, very usable sounds.

Cheers

Alan.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I have never heard a later NT1, but I would have thought that they would have been a good mic. What other mics are you comparing yours too? Just to give me an idea what you are experiencing.

I'm not really comparing it to anything, I'm just judging it by it's own audio merits. I have had plenty of experience with other condensers, large and small, and plenty of dynamics, of course.

I have yet to meet an entry-level LDC that I care for. The MXL V69M is pretty nice for the price, and the smaller ATs have some uses beyond just podcasting, but that's about it for me in using cheap LDCs for much of anything other than paperweights. Not that they all sound the same; they don't. But they all have their sound to them that in their own way just sounds - for lack of a better term offhand - defective; like there's something wrong with them.

With my NT1s, they just plain sound harsh, like there's a huge bump somewhere around 4-5k or so that just sounds unpleasant to my ears. I'll grant you I have not tried them for everything possible yet, but I have tried them on vocals, piano, acoustic guitar and ambient/room mics at varying times, and was quite unhappy with their sound in each situation, to be honest.

The only other Rode I have experience with is the NT4 X/Y SDC. I had the opportunity to use that to stereo mic a baby grand piano and it did a pretty good job on it, IMHO. I also have no problems with Rode's video shotgun mic (I forget the number). So I have no issue with the brand. But I will say that those NT1s were the last purchase I ever made based upon magazine reviews (which at the time all claimed that the NT1 was the greatest invention since the Bic lighter).

Before someone else chimes in saying that they've had good success with or likes their later model NT1, I'll say that's probably true. This is just one very subjective opinion in a very subjective field, and no one person is right or wrong. I just don't like the sound of most of the the cheap Chinese LDCs. Give me a an EV Re20 or Shure SM7 LDD over any of those any day.

Pics of my NT1s coming up....

G.

 

[gecko zzed]

I just don't like the sound of most of the the cheap Chinese LDCs.

You might need to explain this Chinese reference.

I have a Rode NT1 and NT1a (both of which have served me well . . . would I say anything else?).

I note that both show "Made in Australia" on the case and on the circuit board inside. Does that really mean "made in Australia with components from China"?

 

[iownrocknroll]

I may have to take my NT1's apart too.

I have used them on Ride cymbals before and they worked well.

Also has a room mic for guitar amps.

on that's about it.

 

[Sonixx]

I bought a pair of NT1 mics in 99 and thought they sounded very 1-dimensional. Needless to say I sold them.

I later bought a pair of NTK's and I didn't care for them either. I kept them for about two years before selling.

 

[kidvybes]

I note that both show "Made in Australia" on the case and on the circuit board inside. Does that really mean "made in Australia with components from China"?

...earliest versions of the NT1 and NT2 utilized mic bodies and capsules made by 797audio in China...Rode supplied the circuit board...later, as Rode grew, they incorporated the tooling of the bodies and capsules in their own facilities in Australia...

...interestingly, the original Behringer B1 and B2 mics were made using the leftover capsules and bodies (as well as the Chinese manufactured circuit boards) that were originally tooled for Rode by 797audio...

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

As promised, here's my pics.

The first pic shows the two mics, with one facing forward (the RODE logo visible) and the other one rear-facing (note the serial number printed right on the can).

I opened up the earliest one (the lowest serial number, A13090.) Note the curcuit board and the capsule are mounted perpendicular to each other, how much the circuit board resembles your NT2 in look, and that the circuit board has the Rode name and NT1 designation, but no serial number of it's own. No pad or roll-off switches anywhere.

@Mike: As kidvybes already alluded, I'm referring to the spate of sub-US$250 condensers that have flooded the market in the past decade that incorporate LDC capsules of Chinese design and often manufacture.

G.

 

[witzendoz]

Hi Again,

When Rode started out they got into the low price market (started it really) by using some Chinese components and assembling the Mics in Australia. This was completely opposite to what everyone else was doing. Looking at my old mics I would say that the mic body and maybe the Capsule was from China.

Rode was testing the market at the time and when the market showed that there was indeed a market Rode shifted all manufacturing and assembly to Australia. Foe some reason people in the USA can't seem to think this is the case even though the Mics now have "Made in Australia" on them. But some people in the USA also think Australia is in Europe ha ha ha.

Back to the actual mics and the sound, I have no trouble at all with the sound of these mics, they compare to (but have their own character) my Akg's, Sennheiser's, Audio Technica's, Shure's, etc etc that I own. I do know that in the early days there were some quality control issues and sound variations between mics, which is why Rode moved all production to Australia. http://aus.rodemic.com/history.php

I also believe that the sound of mics is subjective, some people like them others don't, that is fine because if we all liked the same sound there would only be one mic made. It's the same as studio monitors.

Cheers

Alan.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

When Rode started out they got into the low price market (started it really)

Yep. The NT1 was really the model that really kicked open the whole inexpensive LDC genre. This is why folks were so enamored and excited about it ten years ago, it was really quite a novel product.

Foe some reason people in the USA can't seem to think this is the case even though the Mics now have "Made in Australia" on them.

I can't speak for the multitude of idiots out there, but speaking for myself you'll notice I said "designed and sometimes manufactured" in China. There's real reasons why an NT1 (and an MXL and a SP, etc.) cost 1/5th the price of a Mojave Audio or AKG and 1/10th or less the price of a high end Neumann, and it's not just that stuff is made by Chinese workers being paid $5 a day. Even when manufactured in Austrailia (or wherever MXLs and SPs and so forth are manufactured), they are still using the cheaper *design*, including the design of the capsule itself. If an NT1 capsule were of similiar quality of *design* and QC to a Mojave or AKG or Neuman, trust me, Rode would be selling it for a lot more than $200, because it would cost more to manufacture. A Yugo made in Germany to the same specs as used in Yugoslavia would still be a Yugo.

Back to the actual mics and the sound, I have no trouble at all with the sound of these mics, they compare to (but have their own character) my Akg's, Sennheiser's, Audio Technica's, Shure's, etc etc that I own.
...
I also believe that the sound of mics is subjective, some people like them others don't, that is fine because if we all liked the same sound there would only be one mic made. It's the same as studio monitors.

I agree with that last part especially, it's all subjective. Which is why I left this Microphone forum about a month after I joined the BBS; othe rthan Harvey's stickies, it mostly just a bunch of idiots arguing over personal opinion that has almost nothing to do with the art or science of audio engineering.

But you gotta admit based upon what we've seen here that when you're talking about an NT1 and I'm talking about an NT1, that we're talking about two completely different microphones. The fact that they have the same model number only confuses the matter. But the circuit design is different, the solid state components are entirely different, and the diffraction pattern of the screen is entirely different. We're comparing apples and oranges here. I have no idea what your NT1s actually sound like (other than your description, of course) but just from looking at the build differences I could make a good guess that yours will sound better.

And, come on, do you really want to stereotype all us Yanks that way? Most of us are idiots, sure. That's no secret. But that's true of the human race in general, and is an affliction to which Aussies are no more immune than homo not-so-sapians in any other country. Witness the sensitivity to comments about a company simply because it based in your country.

G.

 

[witzendoz]

And, come on, do you really want to stereotype all us Yanks that way? Most of us are idiots, sure. That's no secret. But that's true of the human race in general, and is an affliction to which Aussies are no more immune than homo not-so-sapians in any other country. Witness the sensitivity to comments about a company simply because it based in your country.

G.

I was saying this "But some people in the USA also think Australia is in Europe ha ha ha," as a joke, with the ha ha ha on the end. I have meet enough people from the US when traveling the world to know that it is in the minority. I also respect the US attitude of "Buy USA," something we lack in Australia.

According to the Rode web site all manufacturing and assembly is now in Australia, there is probably quite a few older Rodes out there that were the Chinese / Australian build. Officially My NT1's don't exist as the 1st mic built was the NT2? But I bought them before the NT2 was released. The first official NT1 was the different shape.

Buy the way I was born in the UK but brought up in Oz, and it's good to discuss this with you and get your views.

Cheers

Alan.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I also respect the US attitude of "Buy USA," something we lack in Australia.

Well, personally I would respect such a lack of jingoism in your country. While I don't wish to stereotype either, I will simply say there seems to be a high correlation between those in this country who are into "buy USA" and those who think Australia is European. If there were a bit less of a xenophobic bent in our consumerism in the 80s and 90s, we wouldn't have GM and Chrysler going out of business today.

G.

 

[Madguitrst]

The early NT1's the oldest on the left which has a strange CR-3A written on it

Look familiar?

Yep. The NT1 was really the model that really kicked open the whole inexpensive LDC genre.
G.

I think the AT4033 and CAD E-100 were really the first.
However, Rode may have been the first to use Chinese Neumann-clone capsules and a Neumann shape (supposed clone?).

 

[witzendoz]

I knew I had seen that CR-3A model somewhere before.

I suppose that Rode used the same tooling factory back then to build the first run of mics, makes sence, most mic barrels all look the same and there is no point re-inventing the wheel. The CR-3A logo may have slipped through? It's got the RODE logo on the other side. I may have the only one in the world like this ha ha ha.

It's a bit like the 1 speaker manufacturer may make all the speakers to suit various brands specifications.

Cheers

Alan.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I think the AT4033 and CAD E-100 were really the first.
However, Rode may have been the first to use Chinese Neumann-clone capsules and a Neumann shape (supposed clone?).

of course the trend in downward pricing had been in place, but I believe (I admit I'm going only by memory here) the NT1 was the one to break the $200 barrier, really putting LDCs in the range of your average Joe Homerrecorder's budget for the first time. The CAD came kinda close at about $250, but, for Joe that was still a taste expensive, and, as you say, it didn't "look like" a Neumann.

The combination of the extremely low price for an LDC combined with the cylindrical design parroting much more expensive mics that were originally designed that way for a real purpose (to house a vacuum tube), and not just as a fashion statement, and the press and prosumer public went nuts to a degree that just never happened with the CAD or AT mics. As such, the NT1 really created the current market of sub-$200 amateur/prosumer LDCs based upon capsules and solid state components of either of inexpensive Chinese manufacture or based upon design or manufacturing principles pioneered by the original Chinese-made products (or some combination of the two).

G.

 

[kidvybes]

Yep. The NT1 was really the model that really kicked open the whole inexpensive LDC genre. This is why folks were so enamored and excited about it ten years ago, it was really quite a novel product.I can't speak for the multitude of idiots out there, but speaking for myself you'll notice I said "designed and sometimes manufactured" in China. There's real reasons why an NT1 (and an MXL and a SP, etc.) cost 1/5th the price of a Mojave Audio or AKG and 1/10th or less the price of a high end Neumann, and it's not just that stuff is made by Chinese workers being paid $5 a day. Even when manufactured in Austrailia (or wherever MXLs and SPs and so forth are manufactured), they are still using the cheaper *design*, including the design of the capsule itself. If an NT1 capsule were of similiar quality of *design* and QC to a Mojave or AKG or Neuman, trust me, Rode would be selling it for a lot more than $200, because it would cost more to manufacture. A Yugo made in Germany to the same specs as used in Yugoslavia would still be a Yugo.
G.

...sorry...strongly disagree...Rode's QC is definately a major step up from the OEM chinese products...Mojave uses a chinese capsule (I own 2)...David Royer's original design for the MA-200 was based on his DIY modding of a basic MXL 2001, of which he complimented the quality of the capsule, but questioned the quality of the circuitry...
...Royer wrote, "When the Marshall MXL 2001 first appeared on the market, it struck me as a likely candidate for modification. The microphone’s capsule is a decent copy of the capsule in a Neumann U-67 and, when mated to well-designed tube electronics, the performance is very presentable."
http://www.hugeuniverse.com/recording/tapeop/tube_mic_25_3.shtml

...Rode actually manufactures their own capsules now...original NT1 capsules were chinese (from 797audio, one of the finest of the chinese capsule maunfacturers) and although the designs were actually very good, the QC was inconsistant...but the Rode circuitry in the early mics was utilizing higher quality components and their QC was much improved...the early Rode mics were a definate step up from the OEM chinese product...

...and a Yugo built in Germany is certain to be a lot better than a Yugo built in Yugoslavia...ask anybody who has bought one of the current Honda/Toyota products that are now built in Mexico/Canada/US...definately not up to the standards of the earlier 100% japanese built vehicles...if you don't understand the value of superior "Quality Control", you're missing the point of Rode's decision to move their manufacturing entirely into their own facilities...

The combination of the extremely low price for an LDC combined with the cylindrical design parroting much more expensive mics that were originally designed that way for a real purpose (to house a vacuum tube), and not just as a fashion statement, and the press and prosumer public went nuts to a degree that just never happened with the CAD or AT mics. As such, the NT1 really created the current market of sub-$200 amateur/prosumer LDCs based upon capsules and solid state components of either of inexpensive Chinese manufacture or based upon design or manufacturing principles pioneered by the original Chinese-made products (or some combination of the two).
G.

...sounds like you're re-writing history...the Germans sent their engineers to china in the 50's to train the chinese to manufacture these inexpensive condenser mics long before Rode ever thought of getting into the mic biz:
http://www.797audio.com/cms/about.php
...chinese mics were available at similar prices prior to Rode's products and Rode simply jumped on the bandwagon (Marshall Electronics/MXL, in business for 30 years, was contracting chinese production over 20 years ago)...and the "cylindrical design" you refer to was used in the manufacturing of German FET/solid state based (non-tube) mics back in the 60's-70's...it had nothing to do with "fashion" as you state...the original NT1/NT2 were built using the Chinese clone of the U87i supplied by 797audio, who were already supplying Marshall/MXL with variations of this design...as I pointed out in an earlier thread, once Rode started their own metal fabrication factory, Behringer jumped in and used the casings and capsules from 797audio for their B1/B2 mics (Rode copies essentially)...true Rode was one of the earlier retailers, but it was their reputation for better QC than the chinese (by manufacturing their own circuitry) that gave them the edge in the market place...

http://www.coutant.org/u47fet/index.html
http://www.coutant.org/u87ai/index.html

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

of which he complimented the quality of the capsule, but questioned the quality of the circuitry... and, when mated to well-designed tube electronics, the performance is very presentable."

And how does that significantly differ with what I had said? When talking about the two different NT1s [emphasis added]:

But the circuit design is different, the solid state components are entirely different, and the diffraction pattern of the screen is entirely different. We're comparing apples and oranges here.

And, OK I swore that I made at least one more reference in SS component quality and not just capsule quality, but I can't find it now, so that's my mistake. I didn't mean to concentrate so hard on just the capsule.

But the art of parsings words aside and trying to actually concentrate on meaning instead (shit, people this is audio, not politics), there's real reasons why Witz's NT1 sounds better than mine, and there's real reasons why the Mojave costs more and sounds better than the MXL, and - botiquing price inflation aside - they mostly boil down to design quality and component quality. And I stand by the proposition that if the NT1 were a better quality mic in those categories, Rode would be able to charge more for it, and like ANY other company, if they were able to charge more for it, they would. But they don't because that's what they make the NT2, the NTK, etc. for.

...and a Yugo built in Germany is certain to be a lot better than a Yugo built in Yugoslavia...ask anybody who has bought one of the current Honda/Toyota products that are now built in Mexico/Canada/US...definately not up to the standards of the earlier 100% japanese built vehicles...if you don't understand the value of superior "Quality Control", you're missing the point of Rode's decision to move their manufacturing entirely into their own facilities...

I never said a thing about assembly QC - or as most companies euphamistically refer to it these days, QA (quality assurance) - because that was not my point. I never said that a Yugo made in Germany would not be of better assembly QA, I said it would still be a Yugo, meaning it is not going to be a BMW or Benz or even a VW just because it is assembled By Germans.

With the NT1, it's not a question of quality control in the manufacture of the circuit boards, it's more of a question of the circuit design and the quality of the components populating it. I'm going out on a limb here, because I don't have facts to back this up and I'm not sure, but I'd bet an MA-100 to an NT1 that the components used in my NT1s circuit board are not of Australian manufacture and are not of the kind of spec or spec tolerance (component QA) that someone like a Mr. Royer would consider using himself.

...sounds like you're re-writing history...

I don't see it that way, unless you can point to a pre-NT1 date where econo-LDC (<$200) sales and model introductions exploded. The NT1 was the prototype that launched the amateur/prosumer econo-LDC market as we know it today.

And if you think the cylindrical design for solid-state LDC bodies is not 90% fashion, you're kidding yourself. There is no physical, mechanical engineering or ergonomic reason why they should prefer that form factor. And indeed not all are; as you point out there are models like the CAD, and famously, of course, the AKG C414, and a few other LDCs that break out their own look. But if it's not holding a vacuum tube, a mortar round, or a stack of Pringles potato chips, the cylindrical "look" is pure fashion.

G.

 

[Madguitrst]

I think those very first Rode NT1s, the ones witzendoz has, were made by Feilo.

SouthSIDE Glen's NT1s are made by 797 - you can tell by the capsule and the capsule mount. Check out the SP B1 capsule mount.

Also, 797 mounts the capsule right on the circuit boards without support brackets.

Check out the difference between witzendoz's and SouthSIDE Glen's mics:
witzendoz's has the typical side brackets, SouthSIDE Glen's does not - just the capsule mounted right to the circuit board.

Anyway, just some things I noticed........
.....oh wait, I just noticed:witzendoz's NT-1 has a transformer and SouthSIDE Glen's NT1 does not (at least it doesn't look like it).

originally by SouthSIDE Glen:
the NT1 was the one to break the $200 barrier, really putting LDCs in the range of your average Joe Homerrecorder's budget for the first time. The CAD came kinda close at about $250, but, for Joe that was still a taste expensive, and, as you say, it didn't "look like" a Neumann.

You have a point....and the AT4033 was around $500.