E-MU 1820M Mic Pres / TFPro

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CItizenX

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I'm a rock/metal guitarist who refuses to record direct with any type of doohickey.

I have a Bogner 101B head, a Mesa 1x12 Recto cab, and mic it up with an SM57 in a "dead" room. The mic is on axis, touching grill, half paper/half cone.

My question is - the TFPro designed preamps in my E-MU 1820M Audiodock - at which price point do I begin to see better results than what they provide?

Do I need to step up to at least a $499 Presonus Eureka to hear a noticable difference? I can't dish out for Avalon. I tried an Aphex 207 a while ago when I had a difference sound card, and I thought the XDR Preamps in the Mackie sounded better than the Aphex.

So... There are a million preamps in the $200 range - would it be futile/pointless to even try one in hopes that it might capture the sound better than the onboard TFPros? The pres in the E-MU have nothing more than a trim pot for gain. Most other preamps I've been looking at have high pass, EQ, some have compression, etc...

I do realize there are better mics than the 57, such as 421, Royer R121, etc etc but I'm an SM-57 Nazi because it WORKS.

Any advice is greatly appreciated - I'd love to hear from someone who owns the same E-MU and is using upgraded/outboard preamps to replace the TFPro. Thanks a million.
 
What is it with the preamps you have now that isn't cutting it? Is it too muddy? Too harsh? Too distorted? Does it disappear in the mix?

Do you own more than one microphone?

I'm not sure that any $200.00 or Presonus preamp would be significantly better than what you have, but there's more than one way to mic a guitar amp, and from what I've tried and from what people seem to say about it, the tone settings you use to record with are different than what you'd be hearing live, or in the room.



sl
 
CItizenX said:
So... There are a million preamps in the $200 range - would it be futile/pointless to even try one in hopes that it might capture the sound better than the onboard TFPros?
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In my opinion, yes. Stepping up to an RNP is the first noticeable jump, IMO. I've heard very mixed things about the Eureka. Unless you can audition one, I'd say that an RNP is a safer bet. Plus, it's a dual channel.
 
People I trust tell me that those pres are pretty good, so I doubt there is a "step-up" under ~$600-$1000. That's not to say you won't find a pre under $500 you like better, but that isn't necessarily a "step-up", if you know what I mean.
 
The pres aren't horrible, but they're not great. Preamps that are noticeably better under $600, IMO, are the RNP, Summit Audio 2BA-221, the new JoeMeek ThreeQ, and the Groove Tubes Brick.
 
Oh, and the DI on the EMU pres absolutely stink, IMO.
 
Well - it's really a simple matter of economics... $499 for the Emu package, how much of that is actually part of the TFPro Pres.

Also, the AudioDock itself has so much I/O, there is not enough physical room to house good mic pres.

For the hell of it, I ordered a VTB-1 to A/B and test out. I'm positive that the weak link in my chain are the mic pres. I just didn't know if I am going to start hearing any real differences unless I step up to something above a certain price point.

I'll see how the VTB-1 stacks up, it was only $100, but I have a feeling I'm not going to really notice a difference.

I track and play mostly all high-gain/metal/thrash stuff. For this, I like the way the 57 picks up, and I like how it works with the V30 speaker in the Mesa cab.

If I had a money tree out back that was sprouting up hordes of $100 bills on a daily basis, I'd be rolling with a Vintech, Avalon, Neve, etc... But for now I've got about $500 to budget on a USED mic pre, meaning closer to street of a $799 unit or so.

I was really hoping that at least one member on here owns the 1820M and has done some testing with various outboard pres and compared them to the TF's.

Thanks for the feedback guys...
 
CItizenX said:
I was really hoping that at least one member on here owns the 1820M and has done some testing with various outboard pres and compared them to the TF's.
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Whaddum I? Chopped liver? :) I own the 1820, which has the same pres, and I told you how they compared to the other pres I own.
 
Oh, also, you need to ditch the 57. It is so overrated. Get a used SM7 or an e609.
 
Second - Sorry, I didn't see you mention that you actually owned an 1820M.

As for the e609 - had one. Sounded as close to "direct" as can be. I think they are great for live use though, as you can just drape em, but for studio use I will take a tried and true SM57 anyday over the e609 Silver.

Scott Henderson and TJ Helmerich - two of the biggest monsters on the planet, also swear by the 57. I mean, it's been in use for 40+ years as the defacto guitar cab mic... why eff with a formula that works?

I've also tried Audix i5, and various other off shoots of dynamic mics and I will use the 57 every time. I don't want to argue about mics here, as that is not what this thread is about and everyone has their own opinions. To me, for high gain stuff, with my gear, the 57 right on the grill is the proper formula.

I will continue to do research on mic pres and continue to educate myself. As I suspected, I don't think I'm going to get into "wetting my pants land" unless I drop upwards of a grand on a high-end mic pre. In the meantime, I guess I will abuse my right to Guitar Center 30 day return policy and proceed to buy/demo/return all of the mic pres they stock until I find a winner.
 
TJ Helmerich is a pretty kickass engineer. I bet he knows a few tricks.


sl
 
Those TFPro preamps are a lower gain version of an old design. I believe they possess +45dB of gain which pales in comparison to other pres they and others are putting out.

War
 
The EMU 1820m possesses surprisingly good A/D and D/A. However, perhaps not so surprisingly, the mic preamps aren't anything you won't get from a Mackie board. The Digi Mbox possesses the best integrated mic preamps of these lower costs audio interfaces.

You'd likely get better quality from the FMR RNP, the Grace 101, the Safe Sound P1 and the Presonus Eureka. We've got reviews of all of them at Mojo Pie.
 
cominginsecond said:
The pres aren't horrible, but they're not great. Preamps that are noticeably better under $600, IMO, are the RNP, Summit Audio 2BA-221, the new JoeMeek ThreeQ, and the Groove Tubes Brick.
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Yes, I was thinking list price, so these would be in my $600-$1000 range, and also the ones Oz mentions.
 
Roland MMP-2 - It has mic modeling, EQ, and a compressor in it.
You can probably purchase it off of Ebay for around $200. It retails at $500 though.
 
i think the pre's in the 1820M dock are underappreciated. i sold my RNP not because the pres in the 1820M dock were better, but because the RNP was not head and shoulders better than those on the 1820M.

I've owned the audio buddy, rane ms-1b, SB VTB-1, and the RNP. the pres in the 1820M are noticably thicker,fuller, and more clear than both the audio buddy and VTB-1. I did like the RNP a little bit more, but again, not enough to justify spending an extra $500. i love the rane ms-1b, and it's the only outboard pre i still own from my original crop. it's less hi-fi than the 1820m, and generally gets better results for vocal tracks in my experience.

the 1820m packs more value into a single box than any other product on the market, IMO. i'd say you could spend $500 on a set of stand alone A/D D/A convertors that would not be a significant upgrade from those in the 1820m. if i had to put a value to the pres in the 1820m, i would think they would fall in the $100/channel range.
 
mrbowes - good post.

As I mentioned, I have a VTB-1 on the way from samedaymusic. I figure if I don't like it, it will cost me $6 return shipping to check it out... no big deal. I am not expecting to be blown away by the thing, I just need to start trying different pres and do some heavy A/B comparisons.

I remember comparing the XDR pres in my 1402VLZ Pro to an Aphex 207 and actually liking the Mackie pres a LOT more than the Aphex - the Mackie just had a lot more headroom and a better/more defined sound for what I do.

I LOVE the 1820M. It enabled me to dump my hardware mixer, which at first was a very scary though, but now I love Patchmix and the ADDA's in this card are absolutely top notch - leaps better than any card I had owned previously.

The ONLY instrument I track live is a mic'd up high gain guitar - so that is what I'm after. I am about 85% happy with my recorded guitar sound right now. Time and time again all you read about is how important the mic pre is... I realize the TFPro's are not BAD by any means, but I know that I can do better.

I am seriously considering the M-Audio TAMPA at this point. It is fairly inexpensive and seems to be the only pre in its price range that makes sense without breaking the $1,500 barrier. On that same note, the VTB-1 seemed to be the only pre in the super cheap $100 range that would make sense.

I did have a Presonus Blue Tube and thought it was noisy, lifeless, dull - that was a bad purchase.

MrBowes - what type of material are you recording that made you feel as though the TF was noticably "thicker clearer more full" than the VTB-1? Vox? Brass? Drums? Guitars? Bass?
 
as an instrument DI, the pres in the 1820m without a doubt smoke the VTB-1. on vocals, both male and female, the 1820m's pres seemed to be wider and generally more "open", for lack of a better word. the VTB-1 does not add as much dimension/space to the sound source as does the 1820m's pres. between my kurzweil k2000, yamaha basses, electric guitar, and vocals, the 1820m's pres stack much better than the vtb-1. however, most people would not use the vtb-1 on every track...

i found the VTB-1 to have a lot of character, and when applied to the right source, it worked suprisingly well. the two sources i found it worked best on were heavily distorted guitars amps and distorted/lo-fi vocal tracks. i'm at work now, but if i can find some of my clips from 1-2 years ago, i'll post them. before i purhcased the 1820m, i used the vtb-1 w/ an m-audio delta 410 to record my heavily modifed 70s ibanez strat copy w/ dimarzios/seymour duncans through a fender twin and fender pro jr. i always preferred the VTB-1 either clean or mildly distorted using it's overdrive/gain knob. whenever i started to crank the drive on the pre, the results were not very pleasing, at least to my ears.

it's hard to ask a lot of a pre in this price range, so with that in mind, i think the vtb-1 does a great job at being a one-trick pony.

i'm currently looking at the great river me-1nv, and although it costs more twice that of any single piece of gear i own, i fell in love with it after visiting thelisteningsessions.com.
 
i've owned the 1820m for 2 months now and this is where i'm at:
i can't stand the pre's. on a unit like this, you need the pre's to be as transparent as possible, and i find that these pre's almost de-colour the sound (if this is actually possible) i treat the pre's more like a trim pot (as mentioned by someone b4), than actual pre's. truthfully, i only use the pre's when i'm amping thru another pre-amp that doesn't have an output level control (which is different than gain control), like the Brick (this is something i don't get). if i'm amping through pre's that have a seperate output control, then i'll one of the other inputs that don't chain thru the pre's on the 1820m. i'm at the point now too that when i need the input level raised a bit, i'll switch over to my mbox and use its pre's.
also, it is a mofo of a resource hog.
and, this might be just me, but i don't think the monitoring is zero latency. i may come very close, but there's something about it that makes me go hhhhmmm!?!
on the other hand:
i find that the adda is great. more crisp and clean compared to my mbox.
 
A pair of M179s through my 1820 is my first line of defense for concert piano recording. I think they're very good. My DMP3, dbx 386, MP20, and (while I still had it) MMP-2 aren't significant steps above it (in terms of pure sound quality. Of course as tools, they are certainly more robust...). The only real problem I have with the pres is that they aren't very usable on loud sources, because the low-end of the pot starts at +25 db. 25-55 is the range. I have absolutely 0 qualms with the quality of sound I get from it with any of my mics.
 
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