Dynamic on ac guitar....

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OneRoomStudios

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So the other day I did a little experiment. I set up one of my NT-5's and an old AT dynamic I had laying around (can't think of the model #, but it was nothing fancy) on my acoustic. The dynamic was placed about 10" out, even with the belly of the guitar and was aimed toward the sound hole. The condenser was placed in the classic over-the-shoulder way that I have used a lot in the past. I matched the levels, and recorded myself playing a part of Leyenda. I didn't EQ or edit them in any way, just normalized them. Guess what? The dynamic KICKED the NT5's but. Absolutely destroyed it. It was full and round without being boomy, and had a mellow tone to it. I'll admit that it was a little weak on the high end (no "sheen" to speak of), but it was very usable. The NT5 on the other hand (which I had previously loved) was harsh and screech-y and had waaay too much room sound, although I do have to admit that it had quite a bit more detail.

Now before anyone jumps on me, obviously the positioning had a big influence on the sound, as did the room (which might well be the worst sounding room in the world), but for this application, the dynamic blew the condenser away.

I had never considered puting a dynamic on acoustic guitar before, but I think I might pull 'er out more often in the future. In the past I had always just EQ'ed the NT5 to sound how I wanted, but the dynamic just made it sound so musical right off the bat. I love dynamics now!


Maybe dynamics are the new condenser :p


-Peter
 
i got some funky results from putting an e609 in the body of the guitar. i love experimenting with oddball ideas, i probably do so more than with conventional recording methods. if you ever get the chance, run a pair of moreme headphones through a pod with the compression up full... you wont get a more lofi sound.
 
It's really not a valid comparison in the least, because in this kind of situation, the mic positioning is going to have a far more drastic effect on what gets picked up than the mic selection. The over-the-shoulder mic is just going to sound a lot different than something aimed at the sound hole.

Now with that said ... I actually think it's important to use a dynamic somewhere on the accoustic guitar if it is going to be in a mix where there are no electric guitars ... or if the accoustic is the main instrument or if it's supplying the bulk of the riff.

Reason I say this is because the notes and the music lie in the midrange. Not in the sound of the pick on the strings; that stuff is more rythmic or percussive. Now if the accoustic is playing more of a supporting role, then it might actually be more important to capture and emphasize that rythmic picking stuff, which is what a condenser does well; helps fit the track in the mix better.

But if the accoustic is the featured instrument, it will sometimes sound like there's a hole in the music if you don't have a dynamic somewhere giving you the notes and the chords and de-emphasizing the "pickety-pickety-pick, strum, pick" stuff. The music is in the midrange. At least that's my take on it.
 
Let me see if I understand what you said accurately . you put the dynamic by the sound hole and the condensor is up by your ear over the shoulder and your saying the dynamic sounded better to you and the condensor had too much room?

DUH!!!

Why don't your try both mics on the guitar, maybe in an xy and see what you get.
 
slobbermonster said:
you put the dynamic by the sound hole and the condensor is up by your ear over the shoulder and your saying the dynamic sounded better to you and the condensor had too much room?
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Nope, I said: "The dynamic was placed about 10" out, even with the belly of the guitar and was aimed toward the sound hole." The mic was probably 15" or so away from the sound hole. Maybe I just explained it wrong...the condenser was actually a lot closer to the soundhole. Here's a picture (the dynamic is on top, condenser below):

Oh, and forgive my terrible drawing abilities.
 

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I like an omni dynamic on acoustic. I don't like cardioids on acoustic because of the proximity effect.
 
ahhhh now I get it, so the NT mic is quite off axis from the sound source.
If your wanting to compare the mics to each other you really ought to use them in the same fashion. I know what your saying about the NT5 though, I always though it was pretty brittle and harsh sounding.
 
chessrock said:
Now with that said ... I actually think it's important to use a dynamic somewhere on the accoustic guitar if it is going to be in a mix where there are no electric guitars ... or if the accoustic is the main instrument or if it's supplying the bulk of the riff.

Reason I say this is because the notes and the music lie in the midrange. Not in the sound of the pick on the strings; that stuff is more rythmic or percussive. Now if the accoustic is playing more of a supporting role, then it might actually be more important to capture and emphasize that rythmic picking stuff, which is what a condenser does well; helps fit the track in the mix better.

But if the accoustic is the featured instrument, it will sometimes sound like there's a hole in the music if you don't have a dynamic somewhere giving you the notes and the chords and de-emphasizing the "pickety-pickety-pick, strum, pick" stuff. The music is in the midrange. At least that's my take on it.
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That makes a great deal of sense. Until now I've just used a stereo pair of sdc's on acoustic. Sounds pretty good but acoustic guitar is often the primary instrument in my recordings and this sounds like a way of making it sound 'fuller'.

I'll try messing around with some mic positions later. What mic positions would you be thinking of as a starting point if you were to use a dynamic mic and and SDC on acoustic guitar?
 
Interesting post you made, Chessrock. But by your reasoning it would be assumed that the dynamic had more midrange and the condenser had more of a smiley characteristic. Which, many times, is true. But not always.

I'll try it this weekend. I enjoy both condensers and dynamics on any source.
 
Stefan Elmblad said:
Interesting post you made, Chessrock. But by your reasoning it would be assumed that the dynamic had more midrange and the condenser had more of a smiley characteristic. Which, many times, is true. But not always.
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The response curve has something to do with it, but the sensitivity is probably a bigger part of it. Dynamics and ribbons just tend to be slightly less responsive to the external or physical sound of the picking/strumming and more responsive to the notes being picked/strummed. If that makes any sense at all.
 
Kevin DeSchwazi said:
What mic positions would you be thinking of as a starting point if you were to use a dynamic mic and and SDC on acoustic guitar?
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I usually put a dynamic in somewhat close, and the condenser a foot or two back from that ... phase align, then sum to mono. I'll also compress the dynamic pretty heavily while leaving the condenser untouched. This allows you more dynamic control without it sounding all choked.
 
chessrock said:
I usually put a dynamic in somewhat close, and the condenser a foot or two back from that ... phase align, then sum to mono. I'll also compress the dynamic pretty heavily while leaving the condenser untouched. This allows you more dynamic control without it sounding all choked.
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Thanks, I'll bear all that in mind.
 
chessrock said:
Reason I say this is because the notes and the music lie in the midrange. Not in the sound of the pick on the strings; that stuff is more rythmic or percussive. Now if the accoustic is playing more of a supporting role, then it might actually be more important to capture and emphasize that rythmic picking stuff, which is what a condenser does well; helps fit the track in the mix better.

But if the accoustic is the featured instrument, it will sometimes sound like there's a hole in the music if you don't have a dynamic somewhere giving you the notes and the chords and de-emphasizing the "pickety-pickety-pick, strum, pick" stuff. The music is in the midrange. At least that's my take on it.
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That articulates pretty well what's been happening with some of my recording lately. I've just had a similar experience as oneroomstudios, where my Shure 545 was ALOT better than my MXL 603s on acoustic guitar, in a tune that featured the acoustic. I though it was kind of a fluke, or that that guitar (a pretty original peice of crap) had found its soul-mic-mate, but what Chessrock has written makes alot of sense to explain what was going on.
 
chessrock said:
I usually put a dynamic in somewhat close, and the condenser a foot or two back from that ... phase align, then sum to mono. I'll also compress the dynamic pretty heavily while leaving the condenser untouched. This allows you more dynamic control without it sounding all choked.
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Interesting thread.

I tried recording acoustic with a Beyer Soundstar Mk II with surprisingly good results, but not as good as recording with a condenser.

Of course, I didn't try recording to both.

I notice that you talk about summing to mono. Would you still recommend the combination of an acoustic and dynamic for stereo recordings?
 
condensers rox

chessrock said:
Reason I say this is because the notes and the music lie in the midrange. Not in the sound of the pick on the strings; that stuff is more rythmic or percussive. Now if the accoustic is playing more of a supporting role, then it might actually be more important to capture and emphasize that rythmic picking stuff, which is what a condenser does well; helps fit the track in the mix better.

But if the accoustic is the featured instrument, it will sometimes sound like there's a hole in the music if you don't have a dynamic somewhere giving you the notes and the chords and de-emphasizing the "pickety-pickety-pick, strum, pick" stuff. The music is in the midrange. At least that's my take on it.
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hi chessrock,

i can't say i agree here, at least with your recommendation. i might agree with your analysis though. in my opinion, if all you have is your acoustic guitar, and maybe a voice, it's vitally important to hear the sound of the pick on the strings (or nails), and also to hear the fingers sliding on the fretboard. that's what i love about good "unplugged" albums; you hear that live sound, that somebody's actually playing a guitar... it's not just strings humming at certain frequencies. maybe it's a matter of preference, but i think most professionally done sparse recordings make it a point to hear these little live noises.

as for condensers not having enough midrange, well, i'd just recommend a large condenser, which colour the guitar/vox nicely, as opposed to a small condenser, which has less colour or "midrange".

sd
 
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