drums at the mastering stage

Br3n

Br3n

New member
when i master my mixes i almost always lose the snare drum. what may be causing this or good ways to address this issue? in the mixes everything sits well and how i like them. just when i try to bump volume up to compete with commercial tracks i lose the snare.
 
if you're fighting the loudness war on your own, you're already losing. My recomendation to anyone trying to master to those levels, is to get it to a true mastering engineer. You can master your own stuff, sure, but don't expect to fight any volume wars doing it. Its incredibly hard to acheive those volumes as transparently as possible without having the experience AND the gear (I think Massive said once that the only way to get high volumes is in the analog realm, not in the box).
 
Dunno if I said that -- Not that I don't agree with it to some extent (a properly calibrated analog chain barely breaking a sweat far beyond full-scale)... But "loudness potential" is something decided by the mix - even the most experienced engineer with the best possible gear is limited by the potential of the mix he/she's working with.

That all said -- What are you using to "bump up the volume" exactly...?
 
i am using cubase 7. the current chain i favor using at the mo is waves ssl master buss compressor at a 2:1 ratio with fast to mid attack into an api 550b then lastly either cubases maximiser or the waves l2 limiter.

i dont mind sacrificing volume to keep the track as i mixed it but when played against other peoples work the volume is noticable. what could i do to gain a few db to compete. ican get the average to about -15/-17 easily its when i want to go to the -12ish range i lose the snare
 
Hmmmm, something sounds wrong with your mix. With my mixes, I don't even try to gain volume when I "master" (pre-mastering), and I get -12 RMS without doing any limiting. And its poppy indie rock, not death metal or hard rock at all. So I'm just going to say that rather than something being wrong with your mix, your mix just can't acheive those volumes. May want to look into doing some remixing so it can take volume increasage.

(what I do with my mixes when I "master" them is just a few VOS plugs....Baxter EQ for some subtle M/S EQ, TesslaPro, and Ferric TDS tape sim....that's it. Nothing drastic at all, just subtle touches.)

In your actual mix, how much compression do you use on the actual tracks?
 
I use very little compression across maybe snare kick and bass. Everything else is uncompressed.
 
You don't want to have more than a db or two of reduction with the ssl. After that, it pumps too much for what you are trying to do.

Without hearing the mix, it's hard to tell what is happening, but your snare probably is either too thin, or not loud enough. When you limit a mix, it gets thicker and denser. Things like rhythm guitars will start to push short, percussive things like drums back farther in the mix.

One way to combat this is to compress the drums individually, as a whole, or both.

When you compress a percussive instrument, you essentially make it longer. (the drum is at full volume for a longer period of time) Things that have a longer duration will keep their place in the mix better when limiting.

This has an added benefit of making the mix louder in the first place. The fewer transients there are using up headroom, the louder the mix will be if you simply normalize it without limiting.

This is what John is talking about when he talks about loudness potential. (actually, just one of the things. There is also frequency balance and a couple other things that will affect the potential volume)
 
Br3n said:
when i master my mixes i almost always lose the snare drum. what may be causing this or good ways to address this issue? in the mixes everything sits well and how i like them. just when i try to bump volume up to compete with commercial tracks i lose the snare.
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I see this as a common issue with a lot of people that try to master their own stuff.
The answer to me is balance.. frequency and level balance within the mix and then proper massaging and gain staging at the mastering stage. The ideal situation is to have a full range tuned system so you can hear whats really going on.. especially in the low end ..and a nice analog chain can help and then putting in the hours to learn the craft and to get the best sound with the least side effect. You have to shed mastering, just like you do mixing. it's not an easy or short answer to master as good as the guys or gals who've been doing it for years.
 
Waltz Mastering said:
I see this as a common issue with a lot of people that try to master their own stuff.
The answer to me is balance.. frequency and level balance within the mix and then proper massaging and gain staging at the mastering stage. The ideal situation is to have a full range tuned system so you can hear whats really going on.. especially in the low end ..and a nice analog chain can help and then putting in the hours to learn the craft and to get the best sound with the least side effect. You have to shed mastering, just like you do mixing. it's not an easy or short answer to master as good as the guys or gals who've been doing it for years.
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i completely agree with this. i hate mastering music, so i have never really learned it but i have however i have done some learning of it just never had any real success with it. what do you tend to do with things ie how much compression how much limiting do you tend to do? i know its not a set rule but just an idea so i know what i am trying to push to hard or to little.
 
Br3n said:
what do you tend to do with things ie how much compression how much limiting do you tend to do? i know its not a set rule but just an idea so i know what i am trying to push to hard or to little.
Click to expand...
I tend to mostly go light with compression when needed, ..usually not much more than 1 dB of gain reduction with a med/slower attack to let the transients through and a quicker release with around a 2 to 1 ratio. Limiting, usually 2 to 4dB in gain reduction. Eq mostly wide bells and shelves - rarely notches. Sometimes automated de-essing to tame sibilance or any high end harshness..
 
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