drum sound...help appreciated

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terrible_buddhi

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ok, working on a new demo for my band...last time i made so many mistakes it scared me...and with your help I was able to polish that turd to a nice dull shine (which is all you can hope for when you save every track as an mp3 and then mix down to an mp3)...so I am starting with the foundation...snare and kick.

This is a first run...I am using a B1 on the kick going into a sound hole...about half way in...and a Sennheiser e604 on the snare....I want to get the sound on these right before i introduce other stuff. Drums are being used for pop-ish punk-ish rock...similar to jimmy eat world.

Your help as always is invaluable.

 
ps: things like...compress at 3:1 then eq boost at 2k is extremely helpful...I am unsure about the order things are supposed to go in.
 
Okay,

Let's start with the kick:

what kinds of heads are on the kick?
how is it tuned?
what kind of muffling is on it?

Is that flat? (i.e., you didn't EQ or anything)


Tim
 
heads are standard remo (I am not the drummer so can't help you a ton here), not too sure how they are tuned...but yes, this is no eq, no compression...nada...what you hear is what the mic heard :)
 
sorry...I believe there is a pillow or blanket inside the head.
 
Well,
Normally what I've begun to suggest is that you tune the batter side just enough so that the metal doesn't jingle.
The head will be totally slack, and will have wrinkles in it.

I know, this sounds kind of crazy, but it will yield an extremely thick sound.
Then you tune the resonant head just a bit higher.

try that and see if that works for you.
Also, I don't know how loud you are monitoring, but you need your playback to be loud.

then, roll off just a bit of the low end. the kick will cut through and have a good solid attack, but without eating up headroom - which in turn will allow you to turn it up a bit more.

Try that and see how it works for you, as a start.



Tim
 
I wouldnt tune the batter side loose... it makes it harder for the drummer to get a good performance that way. you want a good performance just as much as good sound quality. sound quality also has alot to do with the drummers' technique. how you approach hitting each drum and cymbal will affect the sound produced. an easy way to tune drums would be to tune them to a triad in the key of the song you are playing. tune the floor tom to the root, mid tom to the 3rd and the high tom to the 5th. bass drum can be tuned an octave below the root. you can also experiment with bass drum sounds by placing a subwoofer in front of the bass drum and wire it in to the mixer. ive had good results with this.
 
PsyCoNo said:
I wouldnt tune the batter side loose... it makes it harder for the drummer to get a good performance that way. you want a good performance just as much as good sound quality. sound quality also has alot to do with the drummers' technique. how you approach hitting each drum and cymbal will affect the sound produced. an easy way to tune drums would be to tune them to a triad in the key of the song you are playing. tune the floor tom to the root, mid tom to the 3rd and the high tom to the 5th. bass drum can be tuned an octave below the root. you can also experiment with bass drum sounds by placing a subwoofer in front of the bass drum and wire it in to the mixer. ive had good results with this.
Click to expand...

Do you play drums? Just wondering. I'm a drummer, and I use the previously mentioned way of tuning, as do several pro metal drummers that I know - which is how I learned about it - I thought that they were nuts when they both told me-let the metal jingle, and then listening through the headphones, just tighten the drum enough so that the metal won't jingle in the mic.

Yep, it takes a little getting used to, but it also builds up your kicking like crazy.
There are two songs here that both use this tuning.
This was done in the bandroom.

http://www.geocities.com/jaxmetal/bands/tempest_reign/


Tim
 
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Yes I do play drums and I have tried something similar to this before. Hey, if you can play with it and get it to sound good by all means use it. However, for some people it might be harder for them to play with a head that loose (such as myself). I do agree that it will be a good workout for your feet though!
 
PsyCoNo said:
Yes I do play drums and I have tried something similar to this before. Hey, if you can play with it and get it to sound good by all means use it. However, for some people it might be harder for them to play with a head that loose (such as myself). I do agree that it will be a good workout for your feet though!
Click to expand...

Cool.
I wasn't being a smartass, I was just wondering if you were a drummer.:D (just wanted to let you know.)

I use that tuning on a pair of 28" Kicks, so the heads have a ton of play in them....those recordings were made with a Remo kit with 22" Kicks.



Tim
 
So did you use that technique on the 22" drums? They sound real good for that type of music. How were they recorded? The recording sounds good.
 
PsyCoNo said:
So did you use that technique on the 22" drums? They sound real good for that type of music. How were they recorded? The recording sounds good.
Click to expand...

No, that's how Brent is playing them these days.
I know when he was in Iced Earth he had the kicks fairly tight, but he was playing stuff that was a whole lot faster then.

When I first started tuning this way, I thought it was completely strange feeling, but it's really satisfying to really plant the mallet in the head!:D

That was a Sennheiser 421, gated, with slight compression, and the low end and low mids were rolled off just a hair.

I really like it for hard rock because it cuts through, and it's not fighting with the bass guitar for space. It's essentially a "country" kind of kick sound, but it pretty much works well for anything.



Tim
 
terrible_buddhi said:
This is the sound I am going for...
Click to expand...

Crank the batter head as tight as the snare, use slight muffling, and tighten the resonant head up.

That's a Bonham type of kick, which means TIGHT.



Tim
 
terrible_buddhi said:
mic placement? eq? any suggestions on the snare?
Click to expand...

Mic the kick from out in front of the drum, and cover the drum and the mic with a blanket to help keep the cymbals out of the kick mic.

Roll the low end off (60-80 hz) just a bit, or maybe even hi-pass filter it around there....you'll have to play with it a bit. Leave the highs flat.
Cut the mids -3 to -6 around 750 hz.

Just compress it a hair set your threshold at -3, and set the compression about 2:1....just enough to tame peaks.

Do NOT Compress it while you are recording it. Record it completely flat.

Part of this type of drumsound, is the overheads.
I suggest setting them up diagonally across the kit. Play with mic placement before you start eq'ing.

This kind of sound is a lot more organic, so there's not much processing to it.


Tim
 
diagonally? how do you mean? I was going to go with an XY
 
First, you need to get the kit out away from any walls....at least 5' from any walls. You put 1 mic behind the floor tom(s) and aim it at the snare.
The other mic, you put out in front of the hihat side, and aim it at the snare. What this does, is gives you a TRUE stereo image of the kit, with the snare being in the center, the hi-hat and first tom on the left, the second tom-if one, ride cymbal and floor tom on the right. (or vice versa).

Then, while playing back those tracks through headphones, you pan them until the snare shows up in the dead center of the stereo field.



Tim
 
Hey Tom, let me just say that your band is right up my ally. I like the way you tracked the drums, but they could be a little more powerful. A deeper kick would help a lot. For your method, how high above the set would you recommend the overheads be? You say "aim them at the snare". Gotta be more specific.
 
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