Drum Replacement Dilemma?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Toogy
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Toogy

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Ok, not sure where I should have posted this, but anyways...

I just recorded my first band the other night. I offered my services for free to get some experience which I obviously need way more of!! but regardless, we got some decent tracking done and are pretty happy with everything.

However the drums aren't that great sounding on the recording, we didn't have that much time, so I didn't fiddle too much with drum placement and I just setup an attempt at a Glynn Johns setup. If I listen to the drums solo, they are OK, but once everything else gets added in, they disappear!

I was fiddling with the demo to Drumagog and it makes the drums sound awesome, and here comes the main reason I posted this thread.... If I do decide to leave the sample replacements in, do I tell the band? or just keep it to myself?

Thanks!
 
Can you post the wavs or some examples?

It's hard to know if your recorded drums are a lost cause or worth working at.

If they're worth working at, it'd be a shame to skip the experience with samples IMO.

Course, that wasn't what you were asking :P

They might not care, but if they do and you keep it from them, bad reputations spread like herpes.

I'd just tell them.
 
Shouldn't this be the band's decision? :D I mean, if they like the original drums, just let em be!
 
Ok, here are a couple of MP3's The first one is normal and the second has the kick and snare replaced



 
Ok, i hear the difference sure, and the second drums are appealing, but I think you're maybe being a little hard on the real drums.

They don't sound too bad to me at all. I might do the snare a little different and drop the hats a bit, but they're not bad at all.

Personally, I'd be working on the vocals from what little i heard.

Hope that's useful.
 
The replaced drums do have a nice bite to them. I'd keep them in. If they were paying customers I'd say swallow your pride or whatever you want to call it and do whatever they preferred, but since it's for experience and going to have your name on it out there...you want the best recording out there.

Agree that the vocals should be your bigger concern from those examples.
 
Thanks guys, what concerns you guys about the vocals if I may ask?
 
Course you can.

The clip sounds good, but when the vocals come in, it immediately sounds like a live bar gig.
Harsh, i know, but that's the best vague description I can give.

They sound a bit muddy in general to me. Hard to tell but do you have a reasonably tight reverb on there?
 
Yes, I do/did. Still learning how to process everything! Huge learning curve!
 
They disappear due to poor EQ and Mixing.

Drums are THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in a mix... because everything is relative to the drums.... drums only set the tempo.. but the stage, the atmosphere, the image of the song.

I'm not a drummer so im not just hyping my instrument either.

when you say Glynn John do you mean the 3 LDC mic method?

Edit - the biggest problem is the guitar track is much too loud, the bass is much to thin, and you should try to compress/verb the kit bus
 
Steenamaroo said:
Course you can.

The clip sounds good, but when the vocals come in, it immediately sounds like a live bar gig.
Harsh, i know, but that's the best vague description I can give.

They sound a bit muddy in general to me. Hard to tell but do you have a reasonably tight reverb on there?
Click to expand...

Cool. I'd make them a bit drier, cut a little low end, and maybe make them a bit brighter too. Trial and error man.
Keep at it. :)
 
I actually like the original drums...the kick just needs a bit more attack, imo! The replaced snare was too beefy for my tastes...
 
4 Mics, Glynn Johns method. Senn E602 on the bass drum, SM57 on the snare and an AT2035 as the overhead over the snare and an AT3035 as the other overhead behind the drummers right shoulder around the floor tom.
 
Ok, cause the Glyn John Method that i knew was the 3 LDC method.

I think you just need to touch up on the kick and snare.

Are you limited to 4 inputs?

Once i get my questions answered i will be able to help ya :D
 
I'm not limited to 4 inputs, I am using an M-Audio Ultra8R. But I wanted to try and keep it simple and they wanted to have a guitar & bass AND vocal guide track while laying down the drums, so I needed 3 inputs for those scratches.
 
well then the quality is up to them. if the drummer cant drum his parts by himself to a click.. (how the hell can people NOT know their parts to the songs they wrote?) then the quality will suffer.

Ideally you would want to use all 8 of those..2 snare mics, 1 or 2 kick, 2 OH and the rest on toms.

Try to convince him to be able to get by with just guitar or bass.

ANYWAYS... a couple of points to check in your EQ

the kick... cut anything below 40-50hz... boost around 100-200hz, cut anywhere from 250-500hz, try cutting around 1khz... boost around 2-5khz... all the sweetspots of the session will be within those areas.

the snare.. cut anything below 40-50 hz, give attention to the 100-200hz area.. some cases a boost will work... some cases a cut will work... cut around 250-500 again... explore around the 1khz range like the 100-200hz range... and search for the "CRACK" around the 2-5khz range.

the overheads should give a good representation of what the kit sounds like in the room and the snare and kick are there to reinforce the sounds your getting... i would send all of your drum tracks to a master drum buss and compress/reverb to your liking.

now the mix... the guitar is too loud and in your face and the bass is the exact opposite. once the drums are figured out be very careful of your guitar/bass volumes.. because the only reason your drums get "drown out" is because the rest of your mix is too loud or at least one part of it is.

as i said... drums are the most important thing in the mix.. so if they are getting drown out... find the cause and fix it.

you said you were new so im giving you some ideas to think about.

realize that a mix is a world of its own... it is its own picture and every single thing inside of that picture works off eachother 100%... you cant get each isolated instrument sounding "good' and slap it all together and just adjust the volumes to "mix" ...

the guitar sound can change the bass sound... the bass sound can change the kick sound, the drums can change the entire sound of the song... everything works off eachother.

less is often more and dont worry about output volume while mixing, take care of that in mastering.

once you realize that everything works off eachother you will be able to detect what sounds wrong where and why the vocals sound good by themselves but when they are with the guitar/bass they sound muddy or tinny or w/e... and you'll be able to find where the problem is and fix it instead of trying to do patchwork.

THAT is what makes you better.

Edit - i bring this up because i believe you are trying to do patchwork to the drums instead of finding and fixing where the real problem lies.... so far i can hear problems with the guitar and bass in the mix.
 
Thank you for taking the time to post all that! I am going to re-read and get to work! Re-recording isn't an option, so I need to work with what I have!
 
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