Drum machines: How close can you get?

Good point, but I suggested the drum triggers (Roland SPD-8, if I recall...) as the poster is used to playing his own drum parts. There are subtleties that you will get by hitting pads with sticks that you likely won't by striking keys with fingers. If someone was NOT a drummer, I would totally recommend the velocity sensitive keyboard controllers.

Chris
 
Humans do have perfect time. It's perfect because it is human. I would pick Omar Hakims timing over logic audios quantization each and every day of the week. A good drummer has time that relates to the piece, not a fucking crystal oscillator. If you were to put a click track in Omar Hakims ear and have him nail a part and then quantitize it you would ruin the part.

Quantization is for Moby wannabes who need help to get a rundimentary groove to begin with. Playing drums at a high level is about making a _band_ groove and quantization does not do that.

*rant mode off*

I generally play my parts to a click and play them tell they groove with the music in mind. I play them into a Yamaha electronic drumset where they go into logic as midi files. Then edit the parts and often substitute samples. This can be problematic with more resonant percussion parts as the peak amplitude of the sample may be a little later or earlier than the sample you were hearing at the time.

Basically you just get the part to groove by futzing with it. If you are a drummer you should know whether it's grooving or not.
 
I guess it's a matter of semantics here. I agree that "human" time is more musical, and therefore "better" in the hands of a competent musician. When I said that humans do not have perfect time, I was, of course, referring to the mathematical/theoretical definition of perfect time.
:rolleyes:
Chris
 
Speaking of "perfect time"...

maybe off topic sort of...

I am currently in a major debate with a guitar player friend of mine who is a pretty good player, except that his timing drifts. By that I mean that he will start a song at say, 122 bpm, and by the time the song is over, he has played the "A" section (for instance) anywhere from 122 bpm to 132 bpm.

He can't play to a click. That makes it worse, believe it or not. I have to write rudimentary drum parts in Fruity loops (no real drum set here), and we lay down reference tracks to those. The amount of "feeling" and embellishments in his refrence tracks is directly proportional to the amount of time I spend on the rudimentary drum parts, so we go through many incarnations of reference takes before the guitar playing starts to approach the embellishments/"feeling" level of the practice tape (no drummer).

I am not at the level yet where I can program even a rudimentary drum track for a whole song without the practice tape as a reference, but the bpm of the practice tape fluctuates so badly, I can't use it, and so on, and so on.

Anyway, that is the first question. Does anybody have any suggestions to help speed the process other than get a drummer in here (house too small, neighbors would lynch me if I brought another drum set in here)

The second question is; Can anybody show me some reputable reference that addresses the steady bpm thing? The guitar player says that it gives the song an interesting dynamic when the bpm goes up and down. It just feels wrong to me, though.

Just to clarify, I am not talking about songs that use Rubato or Ritardando

(For example: the end of Queens bohemian rhapsody is retardando, it slows down ""Nothing really matters...anyone can see.......nothing really matters......" can't think of a good rubato example, but it is most often used on super ballady songs)

and I am not talking about "leaning on" the snare or "dragging" the snare a little to make it feel faster or slower. I am talking about the verse (for instance) changing speeds throughout the song and even during the verse.

Part of me thinks that there are no rules, and if the music comes out of someone with drifting speeds, then that is the way it should be, but it could just be poor musicianship to fluctuate like that.


any thoughts are welcome and appreciated, AND IF YOU GOT ALL THE WAY THROUGH MY RAMBLE, THANKS!!! (too many red bulls today)

Gar
 
Laynestaley said:
It's very hard if not impossible to tell Fruity Loops from the real thing.. if you do it right. Change the volume of the snare, hihat etc. This does take a lot of time and effort but eventually you will get it right.
I use the Tom Hicks samples. They are really good. You can download them here:
http://samples.artistcollaboration.com/
Click to expand...

ditto that, it's all in the "live" samples one uses, you can use most any wav sound made, in it...

it takes no more time than config most other sequencers, imho....
 
If you know how to play drums, you can get as close to the real deal as you want. It's a ratio between result and spent time.
 
Chris Tondreau said:
Good point, but I suggested the drum triggers (Roland SPD-8, if I recall...) as the poster is used to playing his own drum parts. There are subtleties that you will get by hitting pads with sticks that you likely won't by striking keys with fingers. If someone was NOT a drummer, I would totally recommend the velocity sensitive keyboard controllers.

Chris
Click to expand...


Either way (keyboard controller or drum pads/triggers), there still no comparison whatsoever to a real drum part....midi controllers can only record 127 levels of velocity...a human drummer can record infinite levels of velocity.....

I suppose if someone was a midi genius and was brilliant at mapping out drum samples in a drum sampler, they could get pretty close for certain types of music....

can you imagine trying to duplicate John Bonham's "moby dick" with Midi drums...? Or Mitch mitchell from the jimi hendrix experience in "manic depression" or "the wind cries Mary"?? or Ginger Baker from Blind Faith in "do what you like"....??? or Keith Moon from the who in "teenage wasteland"..?/ I could go on and on....
 
True about the 127 velocities possible via midi data. However, one of the giveaways that someone has used samples triggered by midi data is the fact that there is often only ONE dynamic level - a default velocity of, say, 120. When you can change that up - using different samples that account for different forces hitting the same drum for different velocity ranges - the results become COMPARATIVELY much more convincing.

Chris
 
Chris Tondreau said:
True about the 127 velocities possible via midi data. However, one of the giveaways that someone has used samples triggered by midi data is the fact that there is often only ONE dynamic level - a default velocity of, say, 120. When you can change that up - using different samples that account for different forces hitting the same drum for different velocity ranges - the results become COMPARATIVELY much more convincing.

Chris
Click to expand...

...and the other dead giveaway is the quality(or,lack thereof) of the samples themselves.
If you have a drum machine that sounds waaaay cheesy 1270 levels of velo won't disguise that fact.

But a quality machine(such as the Zoom 123 or Sr-16)will always sound convincing even if it is cut down to 8 velos.
 
I am really surprised at the diversity of opinion on this subject, which is cool.

I have been toying with the idea of seeing about getting a forum here dedicated to Fruity Loops, or maybe "synthetic" drums in general. (Somewhere in the "equipment by brand" caterory?) The Sonic Foundry category only has 3500 or so postings and 650 or so posts. I am pretty confident that this category would be in that range at least.

So, with that in mind, How would I go about petitioning for that? Anybody?


thx, btw!
 
I think the drum programing technology available today
is quite good. Go visit the Sonic implants site if you don't
believe me. It's not perfect but I think someday it will seem to be as human as we all want it to be. Listening to the
samples I think it sounds human enough.
 
I spent a year of life and several hundred dollars, trying to make fake drums sound real. I finally broke down and bought a set of drums (mapex m). Now I can spend my time learning/playing the drums instead of sitting in front of a computer trying to adjust velosity levels and shit. I'm a programmer during the day and decided I didn't want to come home and wade through an ocean of drum samples trying to find that "perfect" snare. Now I come home and sit down at my kit and play... a lot more fun than programming drum tracks.

Dennis
 
skyy38 said:
And just exactly WHAT are the SR-16's "limitations"...?
Click to expand...
Well there's the whole sounding like utter crap thing, but if you can get past that there's a ton more. The programming is really hard to get detailed with and if you try you realize that the guys who made it never intended you to actually get that far. There are entire functions that will not work in song mode which is really irritating when the manual tells you to do something that will not work....ever.
The best thing about the SR16 is it's jammability. You can use a pedal to change patterns with automatic fills.
Problem is again...the sound, it sucks.
If it's so great then tell me why I can ALWAYS spot it and the Zoom 123 a sonic mile away? I personally don't want a drum machine that will make everyone who hears it go, "hey I had that one".

Crap...but not too bad for the money. You DO get what you pay for.
 
Im finding the whole drum machine thing is really about personal preference. I hate mine (DR-670) but it works. You can do a lot of things to tweek your sound. I use phase shifting on the cymbals and snare and it does help. I have enough software to figure out so I dont want fruitty loops. Im going to get some real cymbals though..... I am a guitarist but can play real drums but cant afford the kit and all the mics and new sound card and mixer etc, to get the sound right.
I visited a local recording studio and the owner listened to some of my stuff and said the drums sounded fine and that it would be a waste of cash to do some live drums in his studio. He said Im all hung up on my drum machine and should get over it-lol. Most of the general public non musicians that have listened to my stuff couldnt tell a drum machine from a real one. Im into hard rock so I want a Bonham drummer damnit!!!! I can tell!!!
Maybe I need some more counselling......
Myx
 
jake-owa said:
Well there's the whole sounding like utter crap thing, but if you can get past that there's a ton more. The programming is really hard to get detailed with and if you try you realize that the guys who made it never intended you to actually get that far. There are entire functions that will not work in song mode which is really irritating when the manual tells you to do something that will not work....ever.
The best thing about the SR16 is it's jammability. You can use a pedal to change patterns with automatic fills.
Problem is again...the sound, it sucks.
If it's so great then tell me why I can ALWAYS spot it and the Zoom 123 a sonic mile away? I personally don't want a drum machine that will make everyone who hears it go, "hey I had that one".

Crap...but not too bad for the money. You DO get what you pay for.
Click to expand...

Honesty is the best policy, but OUCH. Jake does not speak with forked tounge.

I have to say this though. I have both, the Zoom 123, and the Alesis SR-16.

The Zoom blows the Alesis away, especially the cymbals, and high hats.

The Alesis, should have been gone a long time ago!

I would think Roland V-drums make both of these toys obsolete?

GT
 
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