Dropout Questions: main issue?

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mbouteneff

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I've been dropping out with my first Sonar project -- it's only one I've used to experiment with different mic setups for an acoustic guitar I'll be using in another project, so I currently have about 16 1-minute audio tracks recorded. When I play one or two tracks, it drops out every other run. Also, the "DISK" meter in the bottom right corner reads "DISK: WARNING" when I'm not playing. Could you help me identify the primary cause for the dropouts? I'm wondering if it's because 16 audio tracks are being processed simultaneously, or if it's because I only have one drive, or something else? I have a pretty good computer, and am wondering what's wrong...

I've been recording at a sampling rate of 48000 and bit depth of 24, and here's my setup:

Computer: Dell Dimension 8200 (Pentium 4, cpu 2 GHz, 512 MB ram)
Drive: single C: drive
OS: Windows XP
Sound Card: M-Audio Delta 1010LT (also, Turtle Beach -- Santa Cruz)
Mic: MXL V67, SM57
Preamp: Dmp3

Thanks, I really appreciate your help!

-Mike
 
mbouteneff said:
I've been dropping out with my first Sonar project -- it's only one I've used to experiment with different mic setups for an acoustic guitar I'll be using in another project, so I currently have about 16 1-minute audio tracks recorded. When I play one or two tracks, it drops out every other run. Also, the "DISK" meter in the bottom right corner reads "DISK: WARNING" when I'm not playing. Could you help me identify the primary cause for the dropouts? I'm wondering if it's because 16 audio tracks are being processed simultaneously, or if it's because I only have one drive, or something else? I have a pretty good computer, and am wondering what's wrong...

I've been recording at a sampling rate of 48000 and bit depth of 24, and here's my setup:

Computer: Dell Dimension 8200 (Pentium 4, cpu 2 GHz, 512 MB ram)
Drive: single C: drive
OS: Windows XP
Sound Card: M-Audio Delta 1010LT (also, Turtle Beach -- Santa Cruz)
Mic: MXL V67, SM57
Preamp: Dmp3

Thanks, I really appreciate your help!

-Mike
Click to expand...

Your system should handle 16 tracks with no problems. Do you have plugins on the tracks?

One hard drive is not ideal for audio, and if it is only a 5400 RPM drive, that could be a problem. I'm guessing, though, that with a 2 GHz Pentium 4, you should have a 7,200 RPM drive.

Have you maximized you DAW for audio - no background processes, OS tweaks, etc. Also, how full is your hard drive? Have you defragged lately?

BTW, if you "mute" or "solo" tracks, all the tracks are still using as much processing power as if they were playing. To reduce processor load, you need to "archive" the tracks that aren't being used.

Still you should be able to handle 16 tracks I would think.
 
Forgot to ask what latency you are running at. If you have an extremely low latency setting, you might need to raise it.
 
Thanks, Dachay. I currently have no plugins running. I'm not sure what RPM drive I have...(where would I look?) I have not yet maximized my DAW, I've been mostly using the software as is, just having followed the basic install steps. My buffer size is set to the fastest level; I tried making it smaller (in Options/Audio Options, under Mixing Latency) but the latency time (number next to the buffer slider) didn't go below 10.7 msec (actually, it didn't change at all when I moved the slider...perhaps the buffer size is the cause of the problem?). In case it matters, I'm using ASIO drivers. My hard drive is only around 10% full -- it hasn't been used for anything other than digital audio software/recording (It basically sat in storage for more than a year, long story). So it's a pretty clean drive, and hasn't been defragged yet.

Thanks,

-M
 
DMA buffer size update

Whoops - In the ASIO Panel, the DMA buffer size is listed at 512 (samples). (The reason the latency wouldn't change when I moved the slider described below is because it's all controlled in the ASIO Panel)
 
mbouteneff said:
Whoops - In the ASIO Panel, the DMA buffer size is listed at 512 (samples). (The reason the latency wouldn't change when I moved the slider described below is because it's all controlled in the ASIO Panel)
Click to expand...

I would start by playing with the buffer size and the number of buffers. BTW, you need to RAISE latency to improve your performance, not lower it.

Try raising the buffer size to the next step up and see if your performance improves. If not, go another step. And so on. Also, if you have your buffers set at 2, you can also try raising them to 3 or 4 (not sure whether this option is available in ASIO).

I think a program like Sandra will tell you what speed your HD is. If it is 5400 RPM, I would definitely invest in a second 7200 RPM HD.

EDIT: BTW, we are talking about 16 MONO tracks here, right? Not 16 stereo tracks?
 
Yup, that's 16 _mono_ tracks. I'll try messing with the buffer levels as you mentioned...(most likely next week, I'll be out of town, etc).

Thanks for your help, Dachay2tnr!
 
more questions

(I'm back after being out of town, finally)

I tried fooling around with some of the settings, but have not had much luck -- when I increase the latency, the dropouts actually seem to happen more often (if I max out the latency, it drops out pretty frequently).

I'm currently using ASIO drivers, but can use either these or WDM -- is either better? (again, I'm using Sonar and a Delta 1010LT)

Moskus mentioned disabling my Santa Cruz card in Sonar -- how do I do this?

Dachay2tnr mentioned "Have you maximized you DAW for audio - no background processes, OS tweaks, etc." How do I do this -- Is there a sort of check list I can follow?

Thanks!
 
MusicXP
TweakXP
Black Viper

You may want to seriously consider getting a second hard drive to use for the working directory of all audio streaming.
Having only one drive is not recommended for DAW use ... anytime the OS or other programs need to access the drive, the audio stream will suffer ... skips and drop outs.
 
mbouteneff said:
I've been dropping out with my first Sonar project -- it's only one I've used to experiment with different mic setups for an acoustic guitar I'll be using in another project, so I currently have about 16 1-minute audio tracks recorded. When I play one or two tracks, it drops out every other run. Also, the "DISK" meter in the bottom right corner reads "DISK: WARNING" when I'm not playing. Could you help me identify the primary cause for the dropouts? I'm wondering if it's because 16 audio tracks are being processed simultaneously, or if it's because I only have one drive, or something else? I have a pretty good computer, and am wondering what's wrong...

I've been recording at a sampling rate of 48000 and bit depth of 24, and here's my setup:

Computer: Dell Dimension 8200 (Pentium 4, cpu 2 GHz, 512 MB ram)
Drive: single C: drive
OS: Windows XP
Sound Card: M-Audio Delta 1010LT (also, Turtle Beach -- Santa Cruz)
Mic: MXL V67, SM57
Preamp: Dmp3

Thanks, I really appreciate your help!

-Mike
Click to expand...

What video card do you have? Is the Delta sharing an IRQ with something else?
 
Also ... hit Ctrl\Alt\Delete then the Processes tab ... how many processes are running? there are pry a few that can be shut down by right clicking the process and selecting "end process". Things such as Anti Virus and Firewall are not needed to be running while doing DAW work.

Here is an image of one of my DAW's running Processes

I find the ASIO drivers to be the better performer, though you may want to try the WDM and see if you have any improvements.

-Ken
 
mbouteneff said:
I tried fooling around with some of the settings, but have not had much luck -- when I increase the latency, the dropouts actually seem to happen more often (if I max out the latency, it drops out pretty frequently).
Click to expand...

How are you increasing your latency? With the ASIO drivers you have to do this by changing the buffer size (# of samples) in the Delta Control Panel. The slider should have no effect (in fact, I thought it was disabled with ASIO drivers).
 
Thanks for everyone's replies, I really appreciate the help..!

In the order they were asked:

Crankz1: Yeah, I'm beginning to see that I need another drive. Is a particular kind/size/type recommended for this purpose? As for the processes running in the background, apparently I have a bunch...but as a DAW moron, I'm not really sure which are ok to 'remove.' Any advice on what I can scrap -- here's a pic of my Windows Task Manager Window:
<A HREF="https://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v249/mbouteneff/Windows_Task_Mngr_-_scrnsht.gif">Task Manager Window</A>

Brzilian: Where do you look to determine your video card? (I search all over the Control Panel...) And how do you learn if the soundcard is sharing an IRQ with something else? (sorry, I'm such a newbie to DAW..!)

Dachay2tnr: That's right, I did it in the Delta panel by selecting a bigger number of samples. To experiment, I increased it to the max (2,000+?). Dropouts occurred almost immediately. I tried lesser increases (to 700+something). I also tried switching to WDM drivers and messing with the slider then; still, I wasn't getting much improvement...

Question for all -- Should read/write cashing be enabled or disabled?

Thanks for your help, everyone!
 
Caching is enabled on my drives.

A drive like this one would be a good choice.

As far as your processes .... going by the picture you posted and counting from the top down .... the ones I would kill are #'s 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 17, 26 and 27. I would kill any Firewall and Anti Virus and if you are on broadband unplug from the network.

The above recommendations are for when you are doing DAW work only, as some other computing functions will cease to exist. The above may also help in game-play also (if you are into games). Once you are done doing your DAW work, simply restart your computer, plug back into the net and you will be back to normal.

The Black Viper site is great for tweaking XP's services.
 
Brzilian: Where do you look to determine your video card? (I search all over the Control Panel...) And how do you learn if the soundcard is sharing an IRQ with something else? (sorry, I'm such a newbie to DAW..!)
Click to expand...

Control panel\System\Hardware\Device Manager\Display Adapter .... then at the top of the device manager Click ... view\Resources by connection ... now click the + sign next to Interrupt request (IRQ) to expand the list. This is where you can see what all, if any, devices share IRQ's.
If you find that the Delta is sharing an IRQ with other PCI devices, you can try placing it in a different PCI slot. It may take trying each slot to find out. You may also find that you can't get it to change. Trial is the only way.
I would concentrate on killing processes, tweaking the OS and getting a second drive before I worried to much about the IRQ's.

You should also go to Dell Support and see if there are any updated drivers for your system.

-Ken
 
OPTIONS-AUDIO-I/O BUFFER SIZE = Not 64!!!!

Increase to 256, 512, 128 etc., etc., until it works. I don't think it is driver latency as it is the DISK light which is blinking on and causing the drop out. Change that value and you shovel more data to Sonar.

I am running Sonar 3.1.1 with a P43GHz CPU - set at the default value of 64, Sonar is drop out city. Increasing to 512 gives me more contiguous tracks than I can be bothered testing.

I have performed no tweaks, updated all service packs, I run anti-virus and firewall software and am always connected to the internet.

Everything just works and so should your config. too, but I don't think you need to start cobbling your entire PC.

Thanks,

:) Q.
 
YESS!! Y'all Geniuses.

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Wooohoooo!!

I tried Qwerty's suggestion and changed the I/O Buffer from 64 to 128...it cut the DISK meter in HALF, making a huge difference. Going to 256 has the same effect. THANK YOU!!! (man, what a relief...I was getting a little desperate..!) I'll be trying out some of the other suggestions as well to strive for additional tweakage...

Thanks everyone for taking the time to help me out. Damn I love this bbs. I'd give y'all a hug if I could!
 
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