doubts (help!!) regarding serious home studio - on a budget - many tanx in advance

[diogo]

greetings to all,

im a recent member of this forum but a reader for long now. my name's diogo and im writing from Portugal. im a singer songwriter just getting started in home recording, wanting to upgrade from a fostex MR8 and akg 880 dynamic to some better stuff. thing is i opted to tell my independent label that i'll save the studio time money to invest in some gear and do, at least the masters at home, but hopefully the whole record (on a long term basis). my budget is, however, limited, very so all of this is upgradable....but i need a safe/reliable place to start.

but to place my sound, its something between red house painters and nick drake...where acoustic guitars and vocals are always the main thing in the mix, upfront (not in your face/close/nick drake kind of sound - but i want that possibility so the gear "has" to cover that as well), and ocasional layers of guitars (4AD/shoegazing type of thing) behind, along with bass, drums wich are recorded outside (external studio so no fuss there) and some synth, very little, wich is also recorded outside. so basically, im talking about a setup that has to have a 2 channel pre, some decent mics, an interface and a reverb unit. this setup will be used mainly for the all vocal layers, all acoustic guitar layers, all electric guitar layers and bass.

my questions are as follow, and i apologize for such a "demanding" topic as a first topic, but i could really use some help here...

this is what i narrowed my search to so far:

- M-audio Delta 1010 LT - without the 19" rack thing (this seems a well loved unit, i was considering EMU1212 but i dont really trust that company and there's no need for 192khz, Maudio seems much more in tune with musician's needs)

- Shure SM 57 (everyone has to have one right? or a few..)..a friend recomended the Senn 421 as a far better kind of 57...as i can get 57's for 80 bucks its not that big of a deal but..i would like to know what everyone thinks of this..

- oktava 012...i dont really know wether or not ill need the different capsules or even a matched pair of these...it all depends on the techniques im gonna use i guess but...do i really need a matched pair and several capsules taking into account the needs i described earlier?

- oktava mk 319..i rely lots on vocals, always up front...so an lcd is imperable...anyone has any thoughts on this one? at 140 bucks, and gettin raved everywhere for its great components (as opposed to chinese mics on the same area) i would say its a keeper...as i cant really audition any mics, i rely on your opinions to go with it...this seems like a good choice..and i really am on a budget..literally...lots of things to get still..

- pre (looking into a budget one as i can colour the sound with the reverb unit and cant really afford a high end unit yet) - this is one of my main issues and i would apreciate any inpute here...considering my recording needs (as decribed above) i would be looking (but cant make up my mind) into M-audio DMP 3; FMR's RNP; and some other units under 300 bucks that hopefully dont have equalizing or compression on them for i understand its best to have one thing there, not many...the RNP is really the only unit im willin to throw more money into...the rest 300 bucks tops. hopefully 200/250. the DMP 3 seems to get the best out of everyone in this kind of range, but if there's one that goes a little extra mile and considering my needs, please feel free to sugest...
this is one big issue for me, i really cant make up my mind. also, i know ill upgrade fast here...my main choice is the sytek mpx 4 with the bb channels...i know this unit divides ppl but it really appeals to me in every way..i dunno why...the main issue is, of course solid state...but it gets huge reviews...according to my sound, i dont need anything agressive or with huge colour or anything...i want something clear, that will sound "vintage" (in its own limited budget way of course) if i need to, but also something strong, not sterile. seventhcircle ones are supposed to be better but...i really need at least 2 channels, and with 7th i can only afford one at the sytek price range...
this is gonna sound dumb but...what headroom?...from my common sense, wich is a very poor one i admit, it would be when pushing the sytek (for example) at 4 mics at a time, it will somehow be noticiable and not sound as good/strong as it would as when only 2 mics are plugged or something....im asking this cause its the main flaw ppl see in the sytek...lack of headroom...what the hell is this? lol
again sorry if its a dumb question..i never even touched a pre my whole life.

- reverb unit...this is another tricky issue...i know lots of ppl will frown on a coloured sound going into the soundcard, as u cant really change it..but i rely a lot on reverbs and ill take the time to do exactly what i want before i press rec (ive got SIR but i dont even know if thatll work with cool edit pro 2.1 and its supposed to be very demanding on the computer)...ive narrowed my search to 4 units...as i rely a lot on that early 4AD bands sound, and i apreciate that tacky 80/90's reverb (sorry) but i also want something that can sound natural (as in abandoned cereal silo reverb), i was looking into "old" alesis and lexicon units:

- alesis microverb IV
- alesis midiverb 4
- TCM 300
- lexicon MPX 110
- lexicon mpx 550 - USED!
- also, besides your opinions, how can i interface this with the pre? im really sorry if this is the dumbest question ever...

- also, i kind of like cool edit pro 2.1., and ive been using that for a while...can i anticipate any problems in terms of compatibility considering the kind of setup im putting together, and considering that the interface will very likely be the delta 1010 LT? also, i can probably get nuendo or pro tools, but ive grown attached to cool edit, i find the effects there very usable and fancy not having to add plug ins and stuff...are the fx on the other softwares at least as good as in cool edit? is it worth an upgrade?

- decent reliable monitors up to 300 bucks tops :/

i think this is it for now...i would immensily apreciate any help you guys can throw my way, as i have to take quick decisions in the next few days...my budget is limited but i want to make good decisions and spend the little money the label gave me correctly, and at the same time on stuff that wont leave me hanging and that wont make me feel i have to upgrade in like 2 weeks after gettin it :/

many many tanx in advance to all of you...

tanx!

diogo

 

[DJL]

Here's a tip that will hopefully help you.

One of the biggest problems many new home recording enthusiast encounter is making the mistake of thinking the monitoring system/room is not one of the highest priorities and their recordings suffer/suck as a result. If you're really serious... start with the room.

 

[MOFO Pro]

greetings to all,

- oktava 012...i dont really know wether or not ill need the different capsules or even a matched pair of these...it all depends on the techniques im gonna use i guess but...do i really need a matched pair and several capsules taking into account the needs i described earlier?

- oktava mk 319..i rely lots on vocals, always up front...so an lcd is imperable...anyone has any thoughts on this one? at 140 bucks, and gettin raved everywhere for its great components (as opposed to chinese mics on the same area) i would say its a keeper...as i cant really audition any mics, i rely on your opinions to go with it...this seems like a good choice..and i really am on a budget..literally...lots of things to get still..

Oktava makes some great sounding economical mics... the problem lies in their quality control... Physically the construction is pretty cheep...

Buying these mikes without listening to the physical mic you're purchasing is really a crap shoot... there're as many bad ones manufactured as good (especially the 319). Be sure to get a matched pare of 012s to avoid phase and cancellation problems with stereo micing

 

[chessrock]

One of the biggest problems many new home recording enthusiast encounter is making the mistake of thinking the monitoring system/room is not one of the highest priorities and their recordings suffer/suck as a result. If you're really serious... start with the room.

Couldn't have said it better. Another newb mistake is believing that the mic and signal chain, converters etc. are the crucial components in getting a good / hi-fi sound. When in fact, the quality of the instruments (and technique) are far more important when it comes to sound quality.

In other words, I'd much rather have a really nice-sounding, high-end accoustic guitar, and track that with an Oktava and an Audio Buddy using good technique ... than an average guitar tracked with world-class mics, pres and converters (unless that average guitar is part of "your sound," in which case, disregard what I just said ).

Also, spend your money on a great amp before you worry about what kind of mic to use on it. Many of your favorite electric guitar tracks were probably done with really nice amplifiers, but really cheap mics stuck in front of them (Shure 57's).

 

[Strave]

don't go with the mk319 I got one and it sounded horrible... go with something with better quality control... there are much better cheap LD condensers. Don't be so afraid of chinese stuff until you try it. You're going to get different opinions from everyone, but I strongly recommend against the 319.

 

[diogo]

hey guys,

many tanx for the quick answers..


DJL..

i believe you of course..the issue here is budget :/ theres not much i can do really, its either go with a little higher end, wich at this range im told is pretty much that same monitors wise, or cut on mics or something, and i really didnt wanna do that at all...


Mofo and Strave...

ive heard that about oktavas many times...and it saddens me really, cause here's a company doing great (hipotetically) mics at these prices, and they just dont care about them or their costumers btw to invest a little in quality control..or maybe they just cant...i really cant try out any mic, and thats crap :/ i will however get a pair of MK012's for everyone seems keen on these...mk 319 was vocal oriented, now i dunno where to turn...akg c2000 seems like a decent choice at 200 bucks...its an issue..i cant really stretch the budget :/


Chessrock....

i admit im very new to recording, but even at 23, ive been a musician for years and the reason im turning into recording now is cause the label let me record the record the way i wanted, that being take the studio money and invest in some gear and a helpin hand from an engineer to get things going..

im sorry, i probly should've posted this in the first post, my setup is as follows:

acst guitars:
- gibson black dove with fishman pre
- epiphone emperor regent archtop
- epihpone dr-500 me with lr baggs
- hofner classic nylon stringed model
- 2 hofner archtops, cant remember the models

elect guitars:
- fender 52 jazzmaster
- fender jaguar
- fender custom telecaster 72 deluxe

bass:
- epiphone thunderbird IV

amp:
- fender hotrod deluxe

effects:
- electro harmonix memory man
- rat 2
- rat
- toneworks ax1500g
- etc, etc...

i think gear aint a problem. i just spent my musician life playing out and recording in other ppl's gear, lettin them know the sound i want and then just pray they're patient enough. ive been recording in a roland VS 2000 unit from a guy that plays a little ambience synth on my stuff. recently i purchased the fostex unit and akg mic cause i play out too often not to have some sort of notebook on the road. but thats pretty much it. since then ive grown more and more enthusiastic about the recording side of things and want to be able to record my stuff without having to leave the house or going into studios (except for drums). im fortunate enough to be in a "comprehensive" label, but most labels here impose a producer, and its just stupid. one thing is having someone helpin u out, another is having someone the label forces upon u cause the colours he gives his mixing sells. ive seen this happen with ppl i know, and i want to stay away from it as hard as i can. its just not gonna work with me.

tanx guys and please, keep it coming.....

 

[chessrock]

So you're saying your label is cool with the idea of subsidizing the learning curve of a beginning engineer? You've got a very nice and generous label.

Maybe you could take some time to learn the engineering ropes a little more before you jump right in this kinda' thing. Ease in to it a bit. It takes time to learn and to get the knack of things ... although the idea behind your plan seems like a good one in theory. Your music gear (guitars, amps, etc.) is more than up to the task. The recording equipment you're looking at, on the other hand, should all be fine for making rough demos, and for composing or pre-production. And your skills and experience are very likely at a level where you'll make a fairly good student / quick learner.

But hey, if the label's paying for it ... that's pretty sweet. You're lucky I'm in a good mood tonight, by the way. I might have flamed ya if I was cranky.

 

[noisedude]

I think that, apart from my lack of some decent FX and one or two more mics, I have all the equipment I need for what I'm doing right now. But a lot of it is wasted because whilst my room is quite quiet, it doesn't sound great. To my pretty un-educated ears, the bass sounds loose and ringy and there are one or two flutters along the walls that I can semi-cure with blankets over mic stands.

If I was staying in this room I would say that treatment of my space would be by far my most important 'upgrade'. As it is .. I might actually be getting somewhere to play in the next year, so I will carry on improvising.

 

[diogo]

So you're saying your label is cool with the idea of subsidizing the learning curve of a beginning engineer? You've got a very nice and generous label..

no, that is not right. the guy i usually record with will be my engineer, he's been an engineer for that label as well as having his own project there wich is currently touring japan. however, this guy is tellin me "get a VS" as well, but i wont get a VS cause thats not a means to an end for him, its the end, and i want something better than that. i want budget gear at first so if i have to blow something up, that wont be an expensive item like a neumman or a lynx soundcard or whatever..they're willin to give me this cash, wich is not much, so i can get some decent masters (i dunno if this is really what i have to call it). ill do the tracking home, and then take it to the studio for propper mixing and any necessary overdoing and alternate takes, but i also want to develop on that and learn while im at it. the label is independent, small, but they can get their bands touring the other side of the world, however the budget will be very small for me for its only my first album.

Maybe you could take some time to learn the engineering ropes a little more before you jump right in this kinda' thing. Ease in to it a bit. It takes time to learn and to get the knack of things ... although the idea behind your plan seems like a good one in theory. Your music gear (guitars, amps, etc.) is more than up to the task. The recording equipment you're looking at, on the other hand, should all be fine for making rough demos, and for composing or pre-production. And your skills and experience are very likely at a level where you'll make a fairly good student / quick learner..

yes, im going for not so first class gear, i realize that...but as i said before, its all for the best considering i might blow up something. its a risk, i really wanna learn the ropes as u say, thats why. in four months ill have some money from touring for some high end stuff, hopefully not going into it totally in the dark and keeping things working with no smoke at all.

You're lucky I'm in a good mood tonight, by the way. I might have flamed ya if I was cranky.

sorry, i dont quite understand this bit of your message and i dont see why you would feel the need to flame me...cause im on a budget and cause a label is behind it? still dont get it...do u see the gear im going up for...still dont get it. anyway..just looking for some help, is all.