Double Tracking Keyboardzzz

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

I'm recording a demo for my friends band, and on their last cd the engineer double tracked and hard panned the keyboards and got this really wide stereo sound similar to double tracking guitars, but I tried this and I got a TON of noticeable phase cancellation. I realize why this happened, and why this wouldn't happen to any noticeable degree when doing it with guitars, but I have no clue how the other engineer was able to achieve that wide stereo sound without all the super noticeable phase cancellation. He double tracked it with compression using the same preamp. I tried this and it didn't work. I also tried using separate preamps for each track to give each one a little different flavor and for some reason this made the phase cancellation even more apparent!

Listen to the songs the other engineer did here: http://www.myspace.com/fleethecentury

the top and bottom songs, #1 and #3 on that list. there is some phase cancellation but it's not as bad as what I'm getting. Also, any help on what kind of effects were put on those vocals?

Anyone got any suggestions for me? Thanks my dudes.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Why didn't they go back to the first engineer?

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

Why didn't they go back to the first engineer?

I'm simply making them a demo of some of their newer songs. Their old recording was an actual LP on an indie record label. I'm charging them 0 dollars. They paid 1,000 dollars for the other recording. When they are ready to do some sort of actual release, they will probably go back to the other engineer, or find someone
else equally qualified.

Do you have any answers, or suggestions for the problems I'm having now? I know you're really into keyboards, like myself. This would also be helpful information for when I record demo stuff with my band, as I'm the keyboard player.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Have you tried adding about 15 ms of delay to one side of the synth part? Try inverting the phase as well... see what happens. Also, try running the main part to a seperate buss with the pitch adjusted on one side +6 cents and -6 cents the other side and mix it in there.

 

[Halion]

One thing I can think of, just a shot:
If you use a stereo patch on your keyboard, and then pan it hard left or right, you are mixing the two signal to mono. If there is a phase issue between the two channels, it wouldn't matter in the stereo setup, but become very apparent when collapsed to mono (like the cheap stereo image widener units do). You could take one side of the stereo signal, pan that hard, and throw the other side away. Then track again, and do the same thing for the other side, and pan it the other way. Might work.

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

One thing I can think of, just a shot:
If you use a stereo patch on your keyboard, and then pan it hard left or right, you are mixing the two signal to mono. If there is a phase issue between the two channels, it wouldn't matter in the stereo setup, but become very apparent when collapsed to mono (like the cheap stereo image widener units do). You could take one side of the stereo signal, pan that hard, and throw the other side away. Then track again, and do the same thing for the other side, and pan it the other way. Might work.

It was done on 2 separate run throughs with one mono cable, not a stereo patch

Have you tried adding about 15 ms of delay to one side of the synth part? Try inverting the phase as well... see what happens. Also, try running the main part to a seperate buss with the pitch adjusted on one side +6 cents and -6 cents the other side and mix it in there.

Great ideas, thanks!

 

[rickspringfield]

I'm not sure I understand phase cancellation correctly, after reading this thread- I am relatively new. How do you get phase cancellation if you aren't micing anything? Maybe someone can explain phase cancellation a little better, or provide a link? I'm assuming that you ran the keyboards DI into your mixer to record, I know that this is usually how synth stuff is recorded.

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

I'm not sure I understand phase cancellation correctly, after reading this thread- I am relatively new. How do you get phase cancellation if you aren't micing anything? Maybe someone can explain phase cancellation a little better, or provide a link? I'm assuming that you ran the keyboards DI into your mixer to record, I know that this is usually how synth stuff is recorded.

Phase cancellation is when two of the exact same wave/sound are present in a signal, but one has a slight delay. This could be miking an acoustic instrument with two mics, but with 1 mic farther away so it picks up the signal with a delay, or it could be the output of an digital instrument or signal, which plays the exact same wave everytime you hit the button or key. Unlike a guitar, his keyboard is emitting the exact same waveform on both passes, but with slight variating timing delays due to him not playing it exactly the same. So sometimes the 2nd keyboard track is in phase and other times it is out of phase, causing a swirling type of sound from it's phase constantly changing. On a guitar, while doing 2 passes(double tracking) you would have the same timing delays, but you'd also get slight changes in pitch, because the player is never going to play each note EXACTLY perfect twice. Changing the pitch shortens and lengthens the wavelength of a sound wave, and even slight changes will dramatically lessen the effect of phase cancellation, especially in combination with changes in timing. This is how the "chorus" effect works- variating changes in timing and pitch.

So yeah, you don't have to be miking something to get phase cancellation. It just has to be the exact same(or nearly the exact same) signal, like the output of a digital keyboard. Even when doing 2 passes of an acoustic instrument you will get phase cancellation but it will be much less noticeable, perhaps even pleasant sounding. The biggest time to watch out for it is when using digital waveforms, or when having more than 1 mic set up when recording something. Although, you can get phase cancellation from off of a wall even when using 1 mic, because some of the sound you're recording will go directly into the mic, but some of it will reach the mic slightly delayed, because it will bounce off of nearby walls and then reach the mic a fragment of a second later.