double-micing techniques

[photoresistor]

hey i was just wondering what techniques you might suggest for double-micing the snare and kick drum or even double miking the toms... i am recording my band and the church we are recording at has been nice enough to offer their microphones (that are actually already setup on the kit). i was planning on using their mics and supplementing some of mine to try and get the best possible sound.

mics:

1x akg d-112
1x audix d6
2x shure sm57
2x sennheiser e604
1x sennheiser e609s
6x audix scx-1 sdc
1x sennheiser md-421

any ideas as far as where to place the two kick mics etc? now i know that if i put a mic under the snare or toms i would need to flip the phase, but what about the kick mic (like if i put one just inside the port hole on the resonent head and one on the other side of the kick by the beater)?

thanks guys

dan

 

[Tim Brown]

Hi Dan, anything that faces toward the overheads needs to be flipped, so if you mic the snare underneath, it needs to be flipped, and the mic you stick inside the kickdrum needs to be flipped.
I don't have phase reverse buttons on my mixer, so what I did was buy a different colored mic cable, and wired "out of phase" adapter cables.

I don't really see the point in double micing the kick if it's got a hole in the resonant head.

The best advice I can give you is Keep It Simple.


Tim

 

[Licketysplit]

Tim, what do you mean by flipped? as in physically flipping the mic upside down?

 

[giraffe]

he means flip the phase (or more correctly, polarity)

but i agree with the keep it simple idea.

 

[shortness]

Hi Dan, anthing that faces toward the overheads needs to be flipped, so if you mic the snare underneath, it needs to be flipped, and the mic you stick inside the kickdrum needs to be flipped.
I don't have phase reverse buttons on my mixer, so what I did was buy a different colored mic cable, and wired "out of phase" adapter cables.

I don't really see the point in double micing the kick if it's got a hole in the resonant head.

The best advice I can give you is Keep It Simple.


Tim

tim, not a flame, etc...just a question as this is new to me...why do you flip the polarity (ie, what does this achieve, from a techinical perspective) ??

 

[Tim Brown]

tim, not a flame, etc...just a question as this is new to me...why do you flip the polarity (ie, what does this achieve, from a techinical perspective) ??

Because I have no other way to put the microphones out of phase if I have to.

If you crosswire the polarity in the cable, it makes it out of phase. Not the best way of doing it, but until I can get a mixer that has phase reversal, it's the poor man's way of doing it.
So what I did was get some Red Microphone cable, and made 12" long "Phase reverse" adapters.



Tim

 

[shortness]

Because I have no other way to put the microphones out of phase if I have to.

If you crosswire the polarity in the cable, it makes it out of phase. Not the best way of doing it, but until I can get a mixer that has phase reversal, it's the poor man's way of doing it.
So what I did was get some Red Microphone cable, and made 12" long "Phase reverse" adapters.



Tim

no, what i'm asking is, can you explain the phase issue with having (for ex) a mic underneath the snare aiming towards the OH mics? what does that do... froma phase perspective (ie the need to do your phase flipping)...

 

[giraffe]

picture 2 sine waves, one starts from the center line and goes up say (for this example) +5

the other starts from the center line and goes down -5 db

can you picture that? so when the 2 happen at the same time during play back the result is simple if you just think about it in terms of math.

(+5) + (-5) = 0
no signal, the result is phase cancellation.
the phase flip simply makes the (in this example) +5 into a -5.

the new result
(-5) + (-5) = (-10)
just what you may think, two sources=twice as loud.

so think about a snare, when you hit the top with a stick, the first move the top head makes is down, since the mic is above it travels away from the mic resulting in (-5)
the bottom head is also traveling down, but the mic is looking up at it.
so the head it traveling towards the mic (+5)

so the result is
(+5) + (-5) = 0
no signal, the result is phase cancellation.

in the real world the phase cancellation is not perfect, so the snare doesn’t "disappear" like the math would suggest
it just sounds like poo.

so........ any thing above the kit sees the drum head travel away from it *first*
and any thing below the kit sees the drum head travel away from it *first*

i hope that helps, pictures would have been way easier.

 

[shortness]

picture 2 sine waves, one starts from the center line and goes up say (for this example) +5

the other starts from the center line and goes down -5 db

can you picture that? so when the 2 happen at the same time during play back the result is simple if you just think about it in terms of math.

(+5) + (-5) = 0
no signal, the result is phase cancellation.
the phase flip simply makes the (in this example) +5 into a -5.

the new result
(-5) + (-5) = (-10)
just what you may think, two sources=twice as loud.

so think about a snare, when you hit the top with a stick, the first move the top head makes is down, since the mic is above it travels away from the mic resulting in (-5)
the bottom head is also traveling down, but the mic is looking up at it.
so the head it traveling towards the mic (+5)

so the result is
(+5) + (-5) = 0
no signal, the result is phase cancellation.

in the real world the phase cancellation is not perfect, so the snare doesn’t "disappear" like the math would suggest
it just sounds like poo.

so........ any thing above the kit sees the drum head travel away from it *first*
and any thing below the kit sees the drum head travel away from it *first*

i hope that helps, pictures would have been way easier.

thanks giraffe...i assumed this, but i guess my thoughts were very much in tune with the fact that the cancelation would be far from perfect, especially with overheads in place? this is interesting...damnit something else to look at ...i've been micing top and bottom of snare, plus overheads...so you (and tim) are saying that you need to basically flip the phase of the under mic to get the most bang for my buck?

 

[Tim Brown]

so you (and tim) are saying that you need to basically flip the phase of the under mic to get the most bang for my buck?

Yes.

Also a cable tester is a great investment, because you can check the cables to make sure they all have the correct polarity. You don't have to run out and buy one, but if you are like me - I'm a tinkerer, and always messing with electronics, it's nice to have.
It's funny, as a drummer - I was the guy that owned the PA and recording gear, and my guitarists would bring their guitars to me when they needed pickups changed, or needed minor modifications. I always had an interest in electronics. Right now i'm designing a bass guitar that has the strings the same width as a guitar, so it can easily be played with a pick. (The only basses that I have ever seen like this have been played by Joey DeMaio of Manowar.)


Tim

 

[RAMI]

No offense, but if you don't know about "phase cancellation" and "polarity", you're not not really ready to start "double micing"...keep it simple. Learn to crawl before you can walk. 4 mics is more than enough...kik, snare and 2 overheads. Anything more than that and you'll be dealing with polarity issues that you're not ready to deal with.

 

[shortness]

No offense, but if you don't know about "phase cancellation" and "polarity", you're not not really ready to start "double micing"...keep it simple. Learn to crawl before you can walk. 4 mics is more than enough...kik, snare and 2 overheads. Anything more than that and you'll be dealing with polarity issues that you're not ready to deal with.

i actually understand phase cancelation very clearly (i'm a former structual engineer--emphasizing in str dynamics). just did understand from a mic/electronics perspective...in theory (like it was aluded to) the situation has to be 'perfect'...had not dawned on me that it might 'muddy' because the waves are close enough...i think that is basically why i was curious...i've read so much about micing underneath the snare, yet i've never really seen in vast improvement...

 

[shortness]

Yes.

Also a cable tester is a great investment, because you can check the cables to make sure they all have the correct polarity. You don't have to run out and buy one, but if you are like me - I'm a tinkerer, and always messing with electronics, it's nice to have.
It's funny, as a drummer - I was the guy that owned the PA and recording gear, and my guitarists would bring their guitars to me when they needed pickups changed, or needed minor modifications. I always had an interest in electronics. Right now i'm designing a bass guitar that has the strings the same width as a guitar, so it can easily be played with a pick. (The only basses that I have ever seen like this have been played by Joey DeMaio of Manowar.)


Tim

gotcha! yeah i know the feeling...i'm not a huge electronics tinkerer, but every band i've ever been in i've set the majority of the pa...sucks to be the drummer (which always has the most equip) and the person that does the most loading/unloading/setup of pa too! labor of love i guess....bass config sounds cool....those strings are gonna be close!! is it a 4 string? could have a really narrow neck...

hey back on polarity switch cable...do you have a sketch/diagram as to how you do this?

 

[Tim Brown]

gotcha! yeah i know the feeling...i'm not a huge electronics tinkerer, but every band i've ever been in i've set the majority of the pa...sucks to be the drummer (which always has the most equip) and the person that does the most loading/unloading/setup of pa too! labor of love i guess....bass config sounds cool....those strings are gonna be close!! is it a 4 string? could have a really narrow neck...

hey back on polarity switch cable...do you have a sketch/diagram as to how you do this?

Yeah, it's a 4-string bass; my bass player plays with a pick, so it will enable him to play it just like a guitar, and we're using strings that are a bit thinner - but we're still going to tune to standard E, even though everybody around here is doing Drop D, and most of the metal bands are down to Bb.
I'm going to use a guitar bridge with the 4 middle saddles for the tail piece, but I'll have to modify it a bit. I'm going to make the neck width exactly the width of 6 strings on a Les Paul - so where the 1st and 6th strings would be, will be the width of the neck. One of my friends worked at Gibson guitars, so he's going to help me build it.

Here's how they were originally doing it. It's a modified Ric. http://nicdesruelles.chez.tiscali.fr/photos/photos/manowar/Joey.jpg

Here's the New Bass... Dawk (the guy who built this and modified the one above) said would build us one for $6,000. So I'm opting to do it myself, even though I would LOVE to have one he did.
http://manowar.newmail.ru/photos/joey06.jpg



How to do what? Get a cable tester? Do what I did and pay $50 for one. LOL
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=245-030

Oh, you mean how to reverse the polarity!
You just "crosswire" the two hot pins in an XLR cable.

If you are going to go do this - you might be better off building it as a "box"; you just buy the XLR jacks and mount them in a little "experimenters box" (http://www.partsexpress.com will have them), that way you don't have to worry about which cable is wired out of phase. Don't skimp on Jacks either - get either Switchcraft or Neutrik and the thing will last forever....if you use cheap XLR sockets to save less than $6 now - the thing probably won't last a year.

Here's the page for the experimenters boxes http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&SO=2&DID=7&CATID=41&ObjectGroup_ID=208



Tim

 

[mrface2112]

Many folks flip the polarity of their kick mic and "underneath mics" to match that of the overheads. i've always done the opposite--i flip the polarity of the overheads and snare mic to match the kick mic and any "underneath" mics. for one reason or another, it sounds MUCH nicer on my drums in my room. i'd like to be able to explain why it sounds better this way, but i can't.

also, if you are recording to a computer (DAW), you will be well served to take a little time and line up the wave files so that they're all in "sync" with each other. conversely, you can use very short delays on some of the tracks.

example: your snare mic is what, an inch from the top head of the snare, right? your overhead (what's largely responsible for the meat of the kit's sound and most of the snare's sound) is going to be several feet from the snare, usually above the drummer's head. that means that you've got a 2, maybe 3 ms delay between when the backbeat hits the snare mic and when it gets to the overhead. if you record to a DAW, you can see this slight delay in the wavforms, and you can hear it as slight comb filtering. if you take the time and line these two wavforms up, your resultant sound *should* be much better. i know it is when i do it.


in all, i prefer a "the fewer mics the better" approach to recording drums. i'm really into a mono overhead, a snare mic and 2 mics on the kick (an EV RE38 dynamic and an LDC--usually my dragonfly), and sometimes i'll use a pair of room mics about 6ft in front if the kit. i don't close-mic toms unless i absolutely have to. i don't mic the hihat or any other cymbals. i like "less is more" b/c you have fewer things to worry about (and less phase issues) than when you have 12, 15, 18 mics on a drumset. and my drumset's pretty big to begin with......and i really like the "limited approach".......

anyway, just my 23cents....


cheers,
wade

 

[giraffe]

i've read so much about micing underneath the snare, yet i've never really seen in vast improvement...

i almost never mic under the snare
9 times out of 10 it just sounds like crap to me
(but thier is that 10'th time)

 

[Tim Brown]

i almost never mic under the snare
9 times out of 10 it just sounds like crap to me
(but thier is that 10'th time)

If I mic the snare from underneath - I never mic the top. What I'll do is mic the snare shell (aim it at the centger of the shell) from about 8" to 12" out, and run that signal through a noise gate.
Then I put a trigger on the snare, and run the trigger into the Noise Gate's Key input, that way the gate only opens when the drum is struck - and it's key is not being controlled by "air borne" sound - but by the vibrations the trigger picks up. Then you can get this HUGE Fat snare sound with a lot of body.



Tim

 

[giraffe]

If I mic the unbderneath - I never mic the top. What I'll do is mic the snare shell from about 8" to 12" out, and run that signal through a noise gate.
Then I put a trigger on the snare, and run the trigger into the Noise Gate's Key input, that way the gate only opens when the drum is struck - and it's key is not being controlled by "air borne" sound - but by the vibrations the trigger picks up. Then you can get this HUGE Fat snare sound with a lot of body.



Tim

that sounds like a good idea, possibly a huge problem solver, but i don't have any triggers.

but useing a trigger to controol the gate, i love it.

 

[Tim Brown]

that sounds like a good idea, possibly a huge problem solver, but i don't have any triggers.

but useing a trigger to controol the gate, i love it.

Wait, it gets better.

I patch my Aphex parametric eq between the trigger and the key input - and I can bandpass EQ the signal so that nothing else at all can open the gate - no cymbals or drums.

I do the same thing with the kicks ( I was having problems with my bass player's rig opening the gates on the kicks, so I could never get a really clean kick track, so that is partially where the idea came from..)



Tim

 

[mrface2112]

but useing a trigger to controol the gate, i love it.

no kidding. what a FANTASTIC idea, Tim! I'm gonna have to get me some cheap triggers and a cheap, used drum machine and STEAL THAT IDEA.

i too have noticed that i get a *huge* sound from micing the shell of my snare, but it's always drowned out in hatwash. that trigger/gate trick will do it.


cheers,
wade