Double kick compression?

S

sixer2007

New member
Hey friends, quick question for ya..

I listen to a lot of modern metal where there are some pretty intense drums happening, and a few times I've tried to mix a song or two in that style. When it comes to the 'machine gun' crazy fast double kick, I hit a wall in setting up the compressor.

Before the fast parts come, I typically like the settings I get. The attack is getting the punch I want, and the release is letting go before the next hits, and it sounds full and nice. But, when it comes to the fast section, the compressor is no longer reacting quick enough to catch all the hits in the same way. It catches some, but the release is too slow.

Is it common practice to automate the compressor in this case? Or to mult the track out and use a comp on each track?

Quick side note... I've recently been mixing exclusively in Mixbus, and trying to use the built in channel processing as much as possible. However, there is no separate control for attack/release, just one knob. Left = faster of both, right = slower of both.

For the fast drumming, too slow and I get too slow of an attack and it looses punch, but I can't manipulate the attack separate from the release. Does this call for a dedicated "full control" compressor as an insert?

Whatcha think? Btw, this is just something I struggled with a couple mixes ago, and now I've just curious about how others might approach it.
 
You can probably bet that modern metal is getting a lot of help by using kick samples.

I've had success with splitting the kick track and using different EQ and compressor settings for each track.
 
Personally I RARELY use compression on the kick. It always seems to kill the impact for me and narrows the depth of the low end sustain. YMMV

Saying that, I think that Greg is right in that modern metal almost always has sampled kicks that are triggered from hard quantized live tracks.

Also, his suggestion to split the track and process the double kicks separately might be a good idea.

Cheers :)
 
Greg_L said:
You can probably bet that modern metal is getting a lot of help by using kick samples.

I've had success with splitting the kick track and using different EQ and compressor settings for each track.
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Thanks Greg. I know they use lots of samples... I like to believe I might get what I'm looking for without, but it's probably time to dive in and try my hand and more sampling/layering

I thought multing the rack would give me better results. I'll try that.

Mo Facta said:
Personally I RARELY use compression on the kick. It always seems to kill the impact for me and narrows the depth of the low end sustain. YMMV

Saying that, I think that Greg is right in that modern metal almost always has sampled kicks that are triggered from hard quantized live tracks.

Also, his suggestion to split the track and process the double kicks separately might be a good idea.

Cheers :)
Click to expand...

Really? Rarely compression on the kick? Interesting... I find that it really helps give more punch and a more defined, "tippy" sound for lack of a better descriptor. But then again, I've never not compressed it :facepalm:. It'll be tried on the next mix.


Thanks guys!
 
A lot of the guys that don't use samples do use two kick drums. That gives you two compressors, each doing half the hits.

What I do with fast kicks on a single drum is eq before the compressor and set the release as fast as it will go and the attack to let the smack through.
You do need a reasonably tight kick sound. a flabby kick will just turn to mush no matter what you do, if its played fast.
 
I really despise double kick drums. I think they look terrible and they're a total pain to deal with. But the one and only one area that they're useful is for what Farview just mentioned. You're splitting all those rapid fire kick beats into two tracks. Double pedals are convenient and space saving and do the trick most of the time for most people. But if you're blazing fast, so fast that it makes natural acoustic recording difficult, then you need two kick drums.
 
Of course you need a pretty expensive kit with timber matched kicks to have half a chance of the sound of thru kicks matching.
 
I would try compressing the daylights out of the 2 kicks, one compressor on each. Quick attack, quick release, 10:1 ratio. See if it works for you, put the compressor after EQ. Samples? We can make a kick sound just like a sample, this is metal :D.

Alan
 
There's wrong with samples if it's done tastefully. Sample the kick hits you like most in the track if you don't want to use something pre-made.
 
mixsit said:
Yikes. = half a compressor
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Yeah, this is true, at least in terms of the modern DAW in a digital world. However, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong (Never used a real analog desk for mixing), weren't most desks equipped with a single knob attack/release combo? I mean, there wasn't physical room for multiple knobs of EQ, compressor controls, etc, etc for each channel, right?

Even when I look at the Waves SSL channel plug (although haven't used it) there's a similar set up there, making me believe this was a common approach.

Never the less, the modern metal I'm talking about didn't exist before about 2000-ish, so I assume people weren't trying to compress kick drums being hit so rapidly... Maybe it can't be done with that sort of compressor control after all.

But, for a typical rock kick drum, I'm loving the compressor in mixbus. It simply works with minimal effort. There must be a reason old desks were built like that... :cool:

Farview said:
A lot of the guys that don't use samples do use two kick drums. That gives you two compressors, each doing half the hits.

What I do with fast kicks on a single drum is eq before the compressor and set the release as fast as it will go and the attack to let the smack through.
You do need a reasonably tight kick sound. a flabby kick will just turn to mush no matter what you do, if its played fast.
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I wish I had the means to do that for my own tracking! Also I mostly mix other peoples tracks for practice, and have yet to come across 2 separate kick tracks in a session.

Maybe I could quantize the hell out of a track and then move every other hit to a second track? Sounds like a pain in the A though..

witzendoz said:
I would try compressing the daylights out of the 2 kicks, one compressor on each. Quick attack, quick release, 10:1 ratio. See if it works for you, put the compressor after EQ. Samples? We can make a kick sound just like a sample, this is metal :D.

Alan
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Of course you mean if I have the 2 tracks already right? From the tracking session, not DAW voodoo...?

If I do in fact only have one track, any recommendations? Still compress the beJesus out of it like that?

SaraphTravis said:
There's wrong with samples if it's done tastefully. Sample the kick hits you like most in the track if you don't want to use something pre-made.
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I've done this in the past for snare drums. It does work, good call.
 
sixer2007 said:
Yeah, this is true, at least in terms of the modern DAW in a digital world. However, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong (Never used a real analog desk for mixing), weren't most desks equipped with a single knob attack/release combo? I mean, there wasn't physical room for multiple knobs of EQ, compressor controls, etc, etc for each channel, right?
Click to expand...

I don't know what mixing desk you are thinking of here, maybe a digital one, but most analog desks (except the megga $$$$ ones) only had EQ, compression was usually inserted into the channel for outboard gear, by the way I still work this way.

If both kicks are on a single track or the kick is a single kick drum with double pedals, just eq and compress the single track.

Alan.
 
sixer2007 said:
Yeah, this is true, at least in terms of the modern DAW in a digital world. However, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong (Never used a real analog desk for mixing), weren't most desks equipped with a single knob attack/release combo? I mean, there wasn't physical room for multiple knobs of EQ, compressor controls, etc, etc for each channel, right? ...
Click to expand...
I didn't mean to have too much put into that, more just messing around. There's lots of good simple compressors. Just in some cases it is nice to be able to dial in from both directions.
..or all directions actually ;)
 
Questions- Are the fast kicks throughout the song and, if the release is pulling hits down, what would happen if you just raised the threshold there? Treat it kind of like a different event', let'em rip?
 
sixer2007 said:
Really? Rarely compression on the kick? Interesting... I find that it really helps give more punch and a more defined, "tippy" sound for lack of a better descriptor. But then again, I've never not compressed it :facepalm:. It'll be tried on the next mix.


Thanks guys!
Click to expand...

Yeah, if not ever. I also rarely compress any drums at the track level. Compressing close mics always brings out the cardboard quality to me and I don't like it. It also tends to make the drum sound strained and almost disconnected from the rest of the kit to me because of it's isolated dynamic.

These days I only compress drums at the bus level. However you can't just compress with any old compressor which is why I use compressors well suited to drums, often FET or VCA-based like the 1176LN or the 160VU. A Distressor is also good for this. I generally have a medium slow attack with a fast release, often 50ms or less which gives the drums a pumping sound while allowing the recovery to happen quick enough. At first glance you may think this has a negative effect on the cymbals but if you get the timing right you don't notice it. It's also very important to mix INTO the drum bus compressor so that the relevant drums (usually kick and snare) are "biting" enough.

I got this idea from Ola Sonmark, the Swedish engineer/producer (Godgory, Within Temptation, Echoes) and never looked back.

Cheers :)
 
Mo Facta said:
It's also very important to mix INTO the drum bus compressor so that the relevant drums (usually kick and snare) are "biting" enough.
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First off, I like the whole idea and I get what you're saying. I recently tried a "bus level only to start things off" mix, and liked the drums, but did go back and add extra compression individually.

I get the idea of mixing into a compressor in terms of the master bus because I've tried it enough times to have a feel for the best starting point. So I can just sorta set it where I think usually works, mix for a bit, then recheck it a bit later down the road.

But, for drums I'm not sure I wouldn't ruin everything :o
I suppose you just did it over and over until you found a good starting place?

Could you elaborate on how you might choose initial settings?
 
sixer2007 said:
I wish I had the means to do that for my own tracking! Also I mostly mix other peoples tracks for practice, and have yet to come across 2 separate kick tracks in a session.
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You sir are lucky. I've had 3 drumsets come in with double kicks, they were all cheapo kits though. The first 9 piece I recorded I didn't have enough inputs and it sucked so we sample the whole thing because it had old ass heads on it.

Then I find out they play shows with them as well... who the hell would want to lug 2 kick drums around to bars?


I personally hate that setup because while they do use both kicks, they never seem to hit the highest tom (either 10 or 8") or the very lowest tom (18"). So I put up mics that never do anything. Madness I say.
 
Guitargodgt said:
You sir are lucky. I've had 3 drumsets come in with double kicks, they were all cheapo kits though. The first 9 piece I recorded I didn't have enough inputs and it sucked so we sample the whole thing because it had old ass heads on it.

Then I find out they play shows with them as well... who the hell would want to lug 2 kick drums around to bars?


I personally hate that setup because while they do use both kicks, they never seem to hit the highest tom (either 10 or 8") or the very lowest tom (18"). So I put up mics that never do anything. Madness I say.
Click to expand...

When I had a live in house system and a drummer with 2 kicks showed up, I just Y connected 2 kick mics together into 1 channel. Remember I was dealing with 15 min changeovers.

I recently had a kit turn up at the studio with 2 kicks, 4 flying toms and 2 floor toms, plus 2 snares. The kicks actually sounded really good, the flying toms were pop, all large size boxy sounding, all almost the same note as well, the floor toms were fine, oh and about 8 cymbals plus hats, recorded to about 15 channels if I remember right.

Well, the flying toms sounded average, as expected, the snares were good, kicks very good and the floor toms very good. With the use of some gates and some mutes the kit within the mix was fine. However he could have done better with less better sounding drums, however that not what rock and rolls about LOL.

Alan
 
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