Doing fine with ITB for serious stuff; need help with "Quick and Dirty"

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Chris F

Chris F

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I hope I can explain this withou recreating "War and Peace"... :rolleyes: (sorry if I'm in the wrong forum!)

Basically, I've got a couple of things I do in my studio/music room:

1) Make good demo and up quality recordings of acoustic instrument groups in Digital Performer through a MOTU 1224 into a G4 Quicksilver. I've figured out how to rout everything and how to mix in the box with plugs. Sure, I could always learn more, but for now, I'm okay.

2) Make recordings of my personal practice session with one mic, one pre, and a home MD deck - also fine for now.

3) What I'd like to learn to do with the following gear is to make "Quick and Dirty" but halfway decent session recordings so that I can play (I'm a professional jazz bassist) with different folks in drummerless duo or trio settings and record in a "Punch & Play" kinda way. I know very little about the best way to do this, and would like to learn more.

THE GEAR:
Soundcraft M12
Alesis Masterlink (just bought today for this purpose)
M-Audio Tampa (for the double bass)
M-Audio DMP3 (probably for the piano)
M-Audio Solaris (for the bass)
MXL 603s (2 - for the piano or archtop)
SP B1 (for a trumpet or sax - board pres for now)

I know how to hook everything up and send the outs to the Masterlink, but I have several questions:

* Would it be better to send analog outs to the ML, or use the SPDIF option on the board? I've never used the digital out before.

* Since the only "mixing" will be our use of dynamics once we have our initial levels set, and since I like the way plugin compression sounds on the piano, I suppose I should track with compression. I don't mind using the M12 EQ, but I don't yet have a compressor and have no idea how to use one when tracking. Do I need a two channel compressor (one for each piano mic), or can I simply put a single compressor on an aux channel and send it to both piano channels? This is where I need the most help!

* What would be a good clean compressor that's easy to use that matches the price and quality range of my other gear (not the best, I know, but it's what I've got...)? I only have one or two rack spaces left, so nothing too huge.

* Last, I have 2/3 of a Presonus channel strip (Tube pre and EQ3B) that I used to use for live sound...is the compressor in that series worth a damn, or would I only be wasting my money?

Any and all help appreciated. I can't wait to get the sessions rolling!
 
Not quite sure I understand what youre trying to do in question #3.

But in general the ML should have better convertors than the M12, plus it has more than 2 channels no? So you're trying to mix OTB into ML?

for a inexpensive usable comp, go for the RNC(FMR) though I hear its not that great for bass. ART PRO VLA is said to be good also for budget stuff. Anyhting wrong with the TAMPA, or are you looking for more units? Piano normally does not need compression while tracking like say a bass. Did you try the TAMPA on piano? Give it a try. A RNC is 175.00 and worth the dough.
For serial compression on the M12 just hook up the TAMPA , no wait it doesn't have line in does it? That won't work

I say get a RNC or PRO VLA, no get both!!. Then you can use serial compression via you M12. but it only works for 2 channels ala the inserts.

T
 
I second going analog out from the M12 and using the converters in the Masterlink. If all you want to compress is the piano then a two channel compressor would probably be your best bet. You could patch it in through the channel insert jacks. The RNC is a nice unit. It has two channels but they share the same compression settings--probably ok if you're using it with a single source like you plan to. It does not behave well on bass though, so you may need to play with the setting some to make sure you don't get any strange artifacts. There's some information on the FMR audio website in this regard. Alternately, you could setup a single channel compressor on an auxillary output channel, then just take the compressor output back into another input on the M12. This would effectively put your piano into mono though, so I'm not sure that's something you want to do.
 
Thanks for the replies, guys. I went into the ML via SPDIF today, and while I did lose some output level, the sound was nice and clean. I'm not sure how to tell if the ML converters are better than the M12 ones. Just listen?

About the compressor: The engineer I record with for professional stuff does all ITB Protools stuff now (and is masterful with it), but he said that before he went completely ITB, he found the Pro VLA to be a useful unit for various things. His studio went and bought a Millenia Audio unit almost just like it, and while he admits the Millenia is better, he said that there was a lot of good work to be done for a project guy like myself with the VLA.

Anyway, for grand piano, what I really need is something to use as a peak limiter on the way in, since piano is one of the worst instruments I've ever tried to record for transient spikes. Would both the Pro VLA and RNC work for this application? Last, do I need a seperate channel for each mic, or an I use a single aux for compression?

EDIT: Alex, I think we crossed each other and I missed your post. I'll try comparing the ML converters and the M12 ones and see which comes out on top...my only worry is how to get the levels the same, otherwise, louder will probably sound better.

If using an aux will effective render the piano mono, then I definitely want to go stereo, as I'm getting a nice stereo image right now. Can both the RNC and PRO VLA be used as a limiter as well as a compressor? If so, I've got a decision to make. Thanks again!
 
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Quick update: The converters on the Masterlink are certainly much better than the ones on the M12 - more warmth and detail, and especially nice is the control over the amount of initial gain on the ML when sending the signal in. With the "track gain" adjustment feature on the ML, you can boost the level of a warmer and smoother sounding track up to more present levels without making the track sound harsh, which is nice.

Last, I discovered that the converters on the 1224 are much nicer than either. But then, that's getting out of the realm of "quick and dirty"... :rolleyes:
 
cool beans on the 1224 sounding better than the ML and M12. I have a 1224 too.
Oh about limiting with the RNC and/or VLA? I have the RNC, though I have not used it as a limiter per se, I doubt if its fast enough to be a brick wall. I use it to tame peaks, and does a good job on percussion stuff. I recently got a VLA @ $229 from MF. Still getting used to my 1st optical comp with color. I like it so far, but need to do more experiments.

I think you will like the VLA for bass.

T
 
Tonio said:
cool beans on the 1224 sounding better than the ML and M12. I have a 1224 too.
Click to expand...

Really? What software do you use with it?

Oh about limiting with the RNC and/or VLA? I have the RNC, though I have not used it as a limiter per se, I doubt if its fast enough to be a brick wall. I use it to tame peaks, and does a good job on percussion stuff.
Click to expand...

Hmm. I've heard several others say similar things. Since I'm not doing percussion here at the moment, I wonder if I should skip it. What I really need is something to make sure the pianist/guitarist (both acoustic, BTW) don't ruin a good take by spiking a climactic point. Let me know how you think the VLA might do with this - I can certainly afford one of those. Anyway, thanks for the reply, and I'll keep watching this thread in case you have any observations about the VLA.

Only slightly off topic, do you think there's some way to use the 1224 converters to get from the board into the Masterlink without opening up DP and screwing with that? I just made a piano/bass recording with DP and my new mics and pres (Solaris mic & Tampa pre for double bass, B1's and a DMP3 for piano) that sounded so good that it's tempting to just use that all the time...except that it's not exactly "Quick and dirty", if you know what I mean. Any thoughts?
 
Chris ,
I'm on DP 4.5. Ya know you shouldn't be clipping with acoustic gtr and piano. Maybe you should reconsider your tracking levels. I try not to peak above -6 on the audio(input) monitor w/ DP. Sure when I initially try to get levels, then hit the red button it seems (actually will be) hotter. Just turn the pre down a tad or reposition the mic. Same as for analoge-though its more forgiving. But it will still clip the ML convertors if your input is too high. @ 24 bit, you don't need to slam the levels-plus it gives you good headroom later on down the process.
The RNC is fast enough to tame peaks of most instruments. I use is more for fine tuning the dynamics-wether its to make it punchy or to mellow it out. The VLA is optical, so by nature is slower, but has a color and character that is great for vox, bass and other stuff, it depends on what the tune/instrument calls for. I just picked it up because of the great price, its
known uses and a contrast to a VCA comp(RNC).

as far as the 1224, not really sure. But I know that you can use the convertors on the 1224 and pass it through to your ML via SPDIF or AESbut Dp would need to be used at least to suffle the i/o's. I'll take a look to see if the 1224 can be run in standalone mode. I know the 2408 does.

Nice tune @your site.

T
 
Tonio - thanks for all of the great information. I'm mostly a player who dabbles in recording, but I sure do enjoy DP and the 1224 these days. If there's a way to run it as a standalone, that would be amazing. Thanks for the compliment on the tune, BTW. Which one was it? :confused:
 
oops, I meant tunes!! Just about all of them , but do like Black Nile alot.

I used to be more of a "player" , but more into recording and creating stuff currently.
I need to get back to playing more :D The jazz blood is in me, but on the latin side!! Latin Jazz. I'm a percussionist 1st. but these days its kinda hard to tell :o

T
 
Tonio said:
I used to be more of a "player" , but more into recording and creating stuff currently.
I need to get back to playing more :D The jazz blood is in me, but on the latin side!! Latin Jazz. I'm a percussionist 1st. but these days its kinda hard to tell :o
Click to expand...

I can dig it...I've had this same conversation with the guy who recorded all of the trio/quartet stuff on the site. When we get together to listen to the recordings and mix, he always says, "man, listening to you guys makes me want to get back into playing more", to which I reply, "man, listening to these recordings you engineered makes me want to get into recording more". I guess there just aren't enough hours in the day. Thanks for the help. :)
 
I've found the Waves L2 hardware to be very helpful in taming transient spikes when recording. Just set the out ceiling to -.1 or lower and nothing will get past it.
 
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