saads
Baka
Yes, lots of people do.
Yes, lots of people do.
Freudian Slip
New member
It was all a bit tongue and cheek Gecko but, point taken.
I don't for a minute think that atheism = immoral. On the other hand an atheist is obviously more free to choose their own morality. That leaves the question of from who's point of view? Why would an atheist judge his own morality based on what would for a christian be commanded by god? I mean I can see caring for other humans playing a big part...
I agree Atheism is not synonyms with hedonism although I can't imagine why
F.S.
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
Jeffrey Kluger has written a book, "What makes us moral". In it he notes how there is a strong sense of "right" and "wrong" pervasive through human culture, largely deriving from the capacity of humans to feel empathy. Furthermore, though this rightness and wrongness becomes reflected in religious creeds, it has as its source a genetic base, i.e. morality is an evolutionary survival mechanism. In other words, though religion is a vehicle for carrying moral messages, it is not the source.
Freudian Slip
New member
I have read peoples theories on that before. I can't remember the term they used for it. It's an interesting concept. I have never fully bought into it my self, but can understand the thought process behind it. It's pretty interesting when you use it as an overlay on the moral relativism which is so prevalent today. Whether divine, genealogical or taught I think for most people, over riding ones morality without significant turmoil is near impossible.
I would like to think that slave owners always knew it was bad. Yet many activists, politicians, etc. quite often use moral relativism as a tactic or excuse for any manner of activity ranging from simple lies to murder.
I have little patience for it's use in the rationalization of or granting of a "free pass" when it comes ones actions.
F.S.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I must admit, I don't buy that but I can't go into why because then we'll end up in some long convoluted debate which would be fascinating, but this ain't the place for it !
It is interesting that many of the values that certain of rock's shapers kicked against through the 60s and 70s, experience and age saw so many of them veering back towards some of those values. That's why it's hard to pigeonhole all artists as this or that. They are like the rest of us, they progress, they plateau, they readopt etc. Often makes for neat songs.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
You know, I was having a conversation with someone this morning about this. We were talking about bringing up kids and I made the point that if my kids were going to reject what I try to show them when they're older, I'd want them to go through serious internal turmoil. There are some things in life that should be hard, as far as I'm concerned !
As far as slave owners knowing what they were doing was bad, I wonder.....I think some did and you can read into that by the way it was justified {"well, these uncivilized savages are subhuman...."}. But some genuinely believed what they were doing was OK, same way that there are rock'n'rollers that genuinely can't see the problem in screwing underage kids or sharing drugs with kids, regardless of what those kids' parents may then have to contend with. There are so many different ways of thinking and they really can be alien to the modes we may hold.
PhilGood
Juice box hero
Just shut up!
Stop talking! When you have an idea of what you're talking about, please stop, re-evaluate, and then reconsider speaking! Until you do, you just sound like a person who doesn't understand priorities. Such is a low level of the human mind.
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
Is that an example of christian tolerance and understanding?
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Originally Posted by VOXVENDOR View Post
Oops.. One more Little statement from yours truly..
Put your family first, and If you wish to be religious, put your religion second!
I often see people putting god in front of there family, and that is Evil!
"Worship your family, Love your God"
IN THAT ORDER!
Seems like it didn't work for Abraham. Oh well.
It is interesting that the original question evolved into a discussion of theist and atheist moral values, and an examination of cultural relativism. The one thing we can be sure of is that in the end, we will not agree. From the Crusades to the religious wars of the reformation to the Scopes monkey trial, religion and science have failed to resolve the question that they were created to answer, namely-Why? Why does the universe exist, and is there a purpose to it? Can I know that purpose, and what is my role in it? If there is a purpose, then if I support it, am I *right*, and if I oppose it, am I *wrong*?
Most of the great prophets of the world's religions were identified as heretics and madmen by their contemporaries. People who are comfortable that God has given them the answers to the great questions don't want to hear that someone else has gotten a different answer from God.
My perspective is a bit unusual. I was raised by a devout atheist, an excommunicated Catholic, and a Methodist pagan. No kidding. My Grandmother had no problem with, on the one hand, that Jesus Christ is my Lord and saviour, who died on the cross to save me from original sin, and on the other hand, there is a spirit in that rock over there that you can negotiate with. I became an antisocial personality due to the faulty learning provided by my dysfunctional family, and became a professional confidence man. I was cured of that in 1980 by cerebral trauma resulting from a criminal assault, and had to create my own system of values to define moral character, based on models that I selected, in order to avoid the pain of guilt. In other words, I constructed my own synthetic superego. Finally, I got a degree in anthropology, specializing in comparative religion.
In the end, I believe that there is some creative force that we can call God if we want to, and that all of existence is composed of it. I believe that we do not know why we exist, and we have no way of knowing. I don't believe that God told us the plan, or that he is going to. I am suspicious of anyone who bases their life on the teachings of any book, or who thinks they know why we exist. I believe that religion is, and always has been, a scam designed to save us from the anxiety of not knowing why we exist, or what happens when we die, and that organized religion is an extension of that scam, designed to generate power and money by spoon feeding us the supposed answers. I got over it, and I'm comfortable with the fact that I don't have the answers. Does that make me an atheist? No. But I do write songs.-Richie
Oops.. One more Little statement from yours truly..
Put your family first, and If you wish to be religious, put your religion second!
I often see people putting god in front of there family, and that is Evil!
"Worship your family, Love your God"
IN THAT ORDER!
Seems like it didn't work for Abraham. Oh well.
It is interesting that the original question evolved into a discussion of theist and atheist moral values, and an examination of cultural relativism. The one thing we can be sure of is that in the end, we will not agree. From the Crusades to the religious wars of the reformation to the Scopes monkey trial, religion and science have failed to resolve the question that they were created to answer, namely-Why? Why does the universe exist, and is there a purpose to it? Can I know that purpose, and what is my role in it? If there is a purpose, then if I support it, am I *right*, and if I oppose it, am I *wrong*?
Most of the great prophets of the world's religions were identified as heretics and madmen by their contemporaries. People who are comfortable that God has given them the answers to the great questions don't want to hear that someone else has gotten a different answer from God.
My perspective is a bit unusual. I was raised by a devout atheist, an excommunicated Catholic, and a Methodist pagan. No kidding. My Grandmother had no problem with, on the one hand, that Jesus Christ is my Lord and saviour, who died on the cross to save me from original sin, and on the other hand, there is a spirit in that rock over there that you can negotiate with. I became an antisocial personality due to the faulty learning provided by my dysfunctional family, and became a professional confidence man. I was cured of that in 1980 by cerebral trauma resulting from a criminal assault, and had to create my own system of values to define moral character, based on models that I selected, in order to avoid the pain of guilt. In other words, I constructed my own synthetic superego. Finally, I got a degree in anthropology, specializing in comparative religion.
In the end, I believe that there is some creative force that we can call God if we want to, and that all of existence is composed of it. I believe that we do not know why we exist, and we have no way of knowing. I don't believe that God told us the plan, or that he is going to. I am suspicious of anyone who bases their life on the teachings of any book, or who thinks they know why we exist. I believe that religion is, and always has been, a scam designed to save us from the anxiety of not knowing why we exist, or what happens when we die, and that organized religion is an extension of that scam, designed to generate power and money by spoon feeding us the supposed answers. I got over it, and I'm comfortable with the fact that I don't have the answers. Does that make me an atheist? No. But I do write songs.-Richie
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
I find it difficult to accept that religion and science were 'created'. Humans have always been curious. Science is simply a description of curiosity that is applied with a system. Religion is a description of curiosity where a natural explanation is not evident and a supernatural one has been postulated.
As indeed were the great scientists (Galileo and Darwin spring to mind).
There may be this creative force. There may be a purpose. However, that question does not particularly worry me. I am satisified to think there is no purpose; we just 'are'. My 'purpose' is the one I choose for myself.
While I have little time for religions, I am not that cynical. Certainly there is a big element of scammishness in many of the more evangelical industries that pass themselves off as religions. I also believe that religiion is too often used as a means of absolving yourself from your responsibility to take control of your own life: "God made me do it. It is God's will" . . .
However, I am intrigued by neurotheism, the idea that religious feelings are genetically based, biologically driven. See, for example: http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/neuro/neuronewswk.htm
I got over it, and I'm comfortable with the fact that I don't have the answers. Does that make me an atheist? No. But I do write songs.-Richie[/QUOTE]
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
[/QUOTE]
Who knows? There might be something to it. Early anthropologists used to think the Inuit (Eskimos) didn't have any religion at all. That was before they saw them the night before they go hunting whales in a canoe. Yeah, they have religion.-Richie
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Y
Yfoiler
New member
>> "Does anybody write Atheist Songs?"<<
Yes, I do---for $300 per minute of finished music. PM me and I'll send you a contract to sign and you can return it with your "deposit" and I will get started.
Please note however; I am backlogged about three weeks at the present time.
Yes, I do---for $300 per minute of finished music. PM me and I'll send you a contract to sign and you can return it with your "deposit" and I will get started.
Please note however; I am backlogged about three weeks at the present time.
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Well Hallelujah! Just one thing- If they ask you to sign the contract in blood, they may not be real atheists...Richie
R
recordist87
Banned
lol...this is a funny thread...I could imagine that tool may be an athiest favorite...plenty of absolutely laughable satan loving metal out there...but nothing that I take very seiously...don't get me wrong...christian music is hilarious too...
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
By definition, Satan lovers can't be atheist !
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
I think that's not true. Theism is the belief in one or more gods, Atheism is the belief that there are no gods. If you don't think Satan is a god, then you can still be an atheist and believe in him, along with Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, ghosts, and UFO's. Interestingly enough, The First Church of Satan officially claims that Satan does not exist, but is just a symbol used to refute and oppose Judeo-Christianity. So in effect, the most recognizable Satanists in the world are really atheists. But then again, Satan is pretty well acknowledged as the Father of all Lies, so am I supposed to believe them? This religion stuff can get so confusing.
I wish I could say it's all a joke, though. My volunteer work has caused me to meet a woman who was undergoing her thirteenth surgery to repair the damage to her elbows and shoulders that was done when she was crucified, drugged, gang raped, and tortured by her parents and their loony Satanic coven! Those are the ones that really scare me- the ones who really *do* believe in Satan. I wish it was all just Geraldo's imagination. And for the record, these criminal scumbags were not affiliated in any way with The First Church of Satan, and although local authorities collected evidence for years, they disappeared before the case came to an indictment, and their whereabouts are unknown.
If you ever find them, don't spare the buckshot.-Richie
VomitHatSteve
Hat STYLE. Not contents.
If Christianity is correct then athesits DO love Satan. Anything that opposes God is supporting Satan, so they're in league with the guy even if they don't believe in him.
However, most atheists that I've talked to tend to adhere to the idea that there are no supernatural forces at all. God and Satan are both constructs of the human imagination and only Science holds the truth. (But hotly debating atheist dogma on the Internet is probably one of the silliest pastimes I've ever heard of, so I'm gonna stop now. )
However, most atheists that I've talked to tend to adhere to the idea that there are no supernatural forces at all. God and Satan are both constructs of the human imagination and only Science holds the truth. (But hotly debating atheist dogma on the Internet is probably one of the silliest pastimes I've ever heard of, so I'm gonna stop now.
)
strangedogs
New member
it's always a quandry for me - I'm a Christian who loves to play Death Metal 
My Wife feels it's not right but I assure her that no matter what I play INSTRUMENTALLY it has nothing to do with my beliefs. I like a "few" Praise bands but for the most part I'm still a head-banger who loves listening to and playing Metal (at 58 no less...). I also love Classic Rock too and Blues. Most of the Metal I listen to is older - CLUTCH, GODSMACK, etc and I don't really pay attention to lyrics - it's the riffs I'm hearing and trying to memorize. I know Jesus will understand
My Wife feels it's not right but I assure her that no matter what I play INSTRUMENTALLY it has nothing to do with my beliefs. I like a "few" Praise bands but for the most part I'm still a head-banger who loves listening to and playing Metal (at 58 no less...). I also love Classic Rock too and Blues. Most of the Metal I listen to is older - CLUTCH, GODSMACK, etc and I don't really pay attention to lyrics - it's the riffs I'm hearing and trying to memorize. I know Jesus will understand
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
it's always a quandry for me - I'm a Christian who loves to play Death Metal
My Wife feels it's not right but I assure her that no matter what I play INSTRUMENTALLY it has nothing to do with my beliefs. I like a "few" Praise bands but for the most part I'm still a head-banger who loves listening to and playing Metal (at 58 no less...). I also love Classic Rock too and Blues. Most of the Metal I listen to is older - CLUTCH, GODSMACK, etc and I don't really pay attention to lyrics - it's the riffs I'm hearing and trying to memorize. I know Jesus will understand
We're in the same boat here. It's been a long and involved journey for me but I dig among others good heavy rock though for me it's the '66-'83 period that I really dig. For me, the expression of another human being is paramount and makes for good art. Obviously there are some songs I wouldn't want to listen to, but that was also the case when I was an atheist. I do pay attention to lyrics coz I like lyrics, but every recorded musical statement is a snapshot of that particular artist's whereabouts at the time. And artists grow and change....