Does anyone write atheist based songs?

[NYMorningstar]

Also, if you look at some of those atheist songs, they were less about atheism itself and more about the throwing off of what the writers saw as stuff that was rammed down their throats as kids or rejection of their parents/authority figures views. "Imagine" is a classic for that

Are you saying Imagine is an atheistic song? If so, how so?

 

[grimtraveller]

Are you saying Imagine is an atheistic song? If so, how so?

No, I'm not saying "Imagine" is an atheist song. It is however putting forth an atheistic world view. The line there is admittedly slim but in my mind, there is a line. Remember, when Lennon wrote the song, he'd been a C of E choirboy, declared himself agnostic, criticized christianinty in song {'Girl'}, declared the Beats to be more popular to British youth than Jesus - and experienced worldwide hostility from 'christians', transcended himself and the universe through LSD, followed the Maharishi looking for the route to God and been disappointed and left him, followed Janov's primal scream, been addicted to heroin and explored religion and had two Jewish managers, looked deeply into a couple of Eastern gurus.......by '71, he was of the mind "Imagine there's no heaven...". If you follow the thread of the song, he's saying imagine what it would be like if there was no religious thought coz he equated it with some of the world's problems. So the song itself is a-theistic {for him there was little separation between God and religious thought, at that time}. It imagines a world without God. That's more a case of throwing off what one views as the stuff you were brought up to believe.
But it isn't an atheist song in the sense of Marioantigod's stuff that pushes the message "there is no God". That sort of thing is quite a leap. It's definite. Not everyone that writes a song criticizing or having a go at God or religion is by any means atheist. Not everyone that writes from a point of view that rejects what many would accept as 'Godly teaching' is atheist. Many are not at all.
Funny thing with Lennon and "Imagine" - even he didn't truly accept the premise from which the song seems based. That's all a bit verbal diarrhoea-y, I know ! I don't know if what I've written makes any sense to anyone but me ! I hope so.

 

[NYMorningstar]

So the song itself is a-theistic {for him there was little separation between God and religious thought, at that time}. It imagines a world without God.

Thank you for your thoughts.

I understand what you are saying but I have a hard time placing myself in his head and thinking I know what he was thinking. It would be me only projecting my thoughts onto him.

To me, my thoughts, "Imagine" shows John's faith. It's the same message Jesus had for us and is inspired. The song is saying we can all live as one in peace. "Imagine" reflects that living in turmoil, worry, anxiety, fear, and frustration for a believer is abnormal.

Jesus said be of good cheer for I have overcome the world.

My own belief is the kingdom of God is within us and we can enter into it by believing but you got to have faith.

Jesus said peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

 

[grimtraveller]

Thank you for your thoughts.

I understand what you are saying but I have a hard time placing myself in his head and thinking I know what he was thinking. It would be me only projecting my thoughts onto him.

To me, my thoughts, "Imagine" shows John's faith. It's the same message Jesus had for us and is inspired. The song is saying we can all live as one in peace. "Imagine" reflects that living in turmoil, worry, anxiety, fear, and frustration for a believer is abnormal.

Since I was a teenager, I've loved reading interviews, biographies and autobiographies so I tend to base many of my conclusions on things that people themselves have said {bearing in mind that people may change views over a period of time - Lennon was a classic for that}. John was a dreamer who rarely followed his wonderful pronouncements. I think his message couldn't be further from Jesus' because for him, God was foundational to everything he was about and he stressed inner realities that made his message more than just words. There's an interesting difference between say, Peter Green who felt excessive riches were wrong - so he gave his money away and John who said 'imagine no possessions'. I'd've taken him alot more seriously if he believed that and showed it by actually living it out.
But that aside, I like the song. I think it's totally unrealistic and actually demonstrates little understanding about different people {real live people} and the many different ways people think. Take out a few lines and you end up with communism !
Ho hum !

 

[NYMorningstar]

John was a dreamer who rarely followed his wonderful pronouncements. I think his message couldn't be further from Jesus' because for him, God was foundational to everything he was about and he stressed inner realities that made his message more than just words.

I was talking about the song's message and not of John's. When writing a song if you can get yourself out of the way, it will write itself. To do that you need to have faith and I believe he had faith, his songs are beautiful. I understand what you are saying though about his lifestyle but it's not for me to judge.

Peace

 

[grimtraveller]

I was talking about the song's message and not of John's. When writing a song if you can get yourself out of the way, it will write itself. To do that you need to have faith and I believe he had faith, his songs are beautiful. I understand what you are saying though about his lifestyle but it's not for me to judge.

Peace

Yeah, but unless someone is a total fraud or doing a cover version, I personally don't see how one can separate the song from the writer in a message song. I simply do not go with this idea that "songs write themselves". It's been one of the great debates in songwriting over the last 40 years and different people have obviously differing views.
I remember once, my mum kept going on for months about her friend who was making this album of songs that God had given her, words, music and all. I sort of took it with a pinch of salt. About a year later, my mum told me the record was finished and she played it for me. I listened and at the end quipped to the Almighty "if you really wrote those songs, then you are one lousy songwriter !"
I think sometimes we get caught between two stalls, either we take the "I'm utterly brilliant and I kick ass!" line or the "Oh I'm glad you like it, but this came through me, I was just a channel- I didn't actually write this" line. I know the second is often meant to stop one falling into the first. However, I simply don't believe it. I do wholeheartedly accept that sometimes we need to get out of the way and that sometimes happens as improvisation. But it's still the person doing it. The degree of how consciously varies.

 

[SEDstar]

...

Morning Star.....

Imagine there's no Heaven (pretty clear...)
It's easy if you try
No hell below us (real clear...)
Above us only sky (another way of re-iterating no heaven)
Imagine all the people
Living for today (dont worry about afterlife; doesnt exist)

The band RUSH ?

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
(choose your brand of religion)
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
(choosing 'there is no god' is still a religious choice...)
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
("phantom fears" = fearing some god and his laws... 'phantoms' dont exist)
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill.
(the choice is clear to ME... I coose NOT to believe in ANY god)


Ronnie James Dio... Man on the Silver Mountain

I'm a wheel, I'm a wheel, (old name for the sun...)
I can roll, I can feel (I can feel=I am alive)
(And) You can't stop me turning (I am powerful...)

'cause I'm the sun, I'm the sun, (obvious, in case you missed it above)
I can move, I can run, (I am alive...)
But you'll never stop me burning (I am powerful...)

Come down with fire (burn a sacrifice to me...)
Lift my spirit higher (exalt me..)
Someone's screaming my name (chanting while sacrificing)
Come and make me holy again (Worship me again; man USED to...)

I'm the man on the silver mountain (poetic name for the sun)
I'm the man on the silver mountain

I'm the day, I'm the day,
I can show you the way (I can lead you...)
And look, I'm right beside you (you can SEE me, unlike other gods...)

I'm the night, I'm the night,
I'm the dark in the light
With eyes that see inside you (I can see inside your thoughts & soul)

Come down with fire
Lift my spirit higher
Someone's screaming my name
Come and make me holy again

(the rest is mostly repeats...)




Its not that I MIND the message, in fact, these are some of my favorite songs from my youth... but the message on atheism or paganism is re-current in many songs... its not something most people "catch" until its pointed out to them...

When I was young (I am 41...) me and most of my peers wer forced to go to church and say our prayers. When we misbehaved, Jesus or GOD was displeased with us... we risked going to HELL for lying!

go figure, songs bashing that seemed "rebellious" to us as teens... were big selling hits? Teens are nothing if not rebellious...

Today? religion is not nearly so universal of a thing pounded over a kids head. AUTHORITY is, though... songs bashing authority are the rebellious teen anthems now...

authority= cops, govt, parents, etc etc...

music lyrics in general, down thru the years... has always had a rich history of saying something against "the powers that be", i think. Heck, the very term "Rock and Roll" originally was a slang term for premarital sex, back in an era where it was much less acceptable to be "open" about it than today...

 

[grimtraveller]

Heck, the very term "Rock and Roll" originally was a slang term for premarital sex, back in an era where it was much less acceptable to be "open" about it than today...

It was U.S. black ghetto slang for any kind of sex, the notion being that the bed/sofa/rug/back seat and the participants rocked and rolled during the vigourous action.....

 

[NYMorningstar]

Imagine there's no Heaven (pretty clear...)
It's easy if you try
No hell below us (real clear...)
Above us only sky (another way of re-iterating no heaven)
Imagine all the people
Living for today (dont worry about afterlife; doesnt exist)
...

The thing about inspired word is that it holds different meanings for different people. You see it througout the bible.

Your interpretation is what it is, your interpretation. I don't see it like you do but I don't claim to own it. The song is inspired.

By the way, the term rock and roll has as many meanings as there are potholes. The origin as far back as I remember started with just Rock, a new style of music back in the times of Bill Haley and the Comets from an early 40's song they did called Rock the joint.

 

[jimistone]

i kinda don't see the point! i mean as an aethiest, i don't feel the need to strengthen my belief in aethism by writing songs about it, kinda like a strength in silence attitude....but i have to tell you i saw this thread title and just had to laugh... very nice ..hehehe

If you have a strong belief in "aethism" you're not really an atheist because by definition atheism is to have no belief...right?

 

[adamvelvetu]

If you have a strong belief in "aethism" you're not really an atheist because by definition atheism is to have no belief...right?

hm...that its a simplification. i'm an atheist--there's things i believe in though. what it literally means (and by that i suppose what it means to me) is that i don't believe in deities. i do not believe there was an ultimate creator of our universe and the Earth or that there is an invisible force that watches me in judgment and gets upset if I don't appease their ego. whether its a mono or multi theistic religion, etc...I believe in being a good person, treating people well...

To get back to the original comment, though...yeah, I definitely write songs that incorporate my lack of religious belief.

also, did someone attribute the lyrics of 'imagine' to morningstar? john lennon was notorious for placing his atheist views in songs: 'i found out': there ain't no jesus going to come from the sky & 'god': 'god is a concept by which we measure our pain/i'll say it again: god is a concept by which we measure our pain'

lastly, great thread! nice to see everyone debating religious views (or lack of) in such a friendly fashion.

 

[grimtraveller]

hm...that its a simplification. i'm an atheist--there's things i believe in thought. what it literally means (and by that i suppose what it means to me) is that i don't believe in deities. i do not believe there was an ultimate creator of our universe and the Earth or that there is an invisible force that watches me in judgment and gets upset if I don't appease their ego. whether its a mono or multi theistic religion, etc...I believe in being a good person, treating people well...

To get back to the original comment, though...yeah, I definitely write songs that incorporate my lack of religious belief.

also, did someone attribute the lyrics of 'imagine' to morningstar? john lennon was notorious for placing his atheist views in songs: 'i found out': there ain't no jesus going to come from the sky & 'god': 'god is a concept by which we measure our pain/i'll say it again: god is a concept by which we measure our pain'

lastly, great thread! nice to see everyone debating religious views (or lack of) in such a friendly fashion.

I used to be an atheist but I didn't write atheist songs, that is directly atheist songs. I did have a little dig now and again in song at what I saw as 'the religious' {which in my world meant christians at the time}, but I did the same towards government, my Dad, teachers, ex flames, Nigeria and England {or at least some of the attitudes I came across in both places}, people that upset me, etc. I still do that now {!!} despite being a christian. I just disguise it and make it funny or arty !!
Songwriting is a funny thing because in a sense, one forces one's opinion {if there are lyrics} on everyone else. But the listener is consenting in this if they choose to listen. So in that sense, everything is valid, even if one doesn't like the lyrics. Yet at the same time, there are ways of stating those opinions and feelings. You can hit hard or be more oblique. I feel that songs that bang you over the head have their place but if that's all you sing about it gets boring and people get pissed off. People have gotten divorced or broken up in their relationships and have dedicated whole albums to their pain, disappointment and anger. That's valid. But every song for ever more ? Man, that would be monotonous. For me that goes for any subject. However, a world view that is informed by a single subject is another matter altogether.
By the way, Lennon was never really an atheist. Actually, he was very much a person of his time, reflecting the simultaneous confusion, disbelief, rejection, exploration, searching and longing etc of people who may have rejected the religion and religious ideas of their youth but who also felt that there was "something" there in what was then a transitioning world, ie transitioning from a point of definite certainties {including religious ones} being taken as read to one where fluidity was king and almost no certainties reigned, unless it was one's choice to let them do so.

 

[Seafroggys]

Wow, never saw this thread before.

Not reading any of the discussions, since it is a big thread.

But I am an atheist, and I do write about atheist themes. I use the word "god" a lot in a metaphorical sense because its a good word/idea to describe certain things.

For that manner, whenever I start up my dreamband, and we get interviewed by a stupid music journalist, and he asks me, "What genre do you consider yourselves?" I'll just say "Atheist Rock."

EDIT: Read the recent stuff (not the stuff from 2001) and since Imagine is my favorite song of all time, I'll weigh in on a few things. I really don't see how Imagine could be interpreted as being anything remotely Christian. There are possibly some religious themes in there, notably the whole global peace thing, but global peace is not strictly a religious idea, its a human nature idea. So I don't see anything in there that is strictly in the realm of religion. You can "interpret" it however you want, but the farther you extrapolate, the more disillusioned the message becomes (see religious extremists in our modern world).

When I was 13, I rejected the existence of a deity and became an Atheist by default (I don't identify myself as an Atheist, but I am one as a result of my observations about the world). I discovered Imagine at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland when I was just out of middle school a year later, and it changed my world view. It was a song I could identify with. Rejecting "God" and religion and embracing world peace and happiness. I wasn't even extrapolating anything from it, I was just going by the literal words.

Dio wrote a lot of stuff about Paganism and Fantasy and Swords 'n Sorcery. I never considered Man on the Silver Mountain to be anything but a pretty badass song, although I never paid much attention to the lyrics. I just love Blackmore's riff

 

[adamvelvetu]

You can "interpret" it however you want, but the farther you extrapolate, the more disillusioned the message becomes (see religious extremists in our modern world).

And not to lead this off the thread of do we write songs that promote a religious or non-religious belief...but I really liked that point SeaFroggys. We are interpreting things that other people wrote and, most importantly, people we don't know. Not that we shouldn't discuss those interpretations but realize that they are (I realized I did this in saying Lennon was an atheist, none of us know...probably only Yoko) just that.

 

[grimtraveller]

We are interpreting things that other people wrote and, most importantly, people we don't know. Not that we shouldn't discuss those interpretations but realize that they are (I realized I did this in saying Lennon was an atheist, none of us know...probably only Yoko) just that.

That's a good point but {ha ha, that great word "But"} there are steps one can take to find out what someone meant by certain things they've written. I've been an avid reader of books, articles, interviews, autobiographies and biographies since the late 70s. I've read zillions of the darn things and unless someone is a blatant lying dog, I'd say that you have to take what a person says. Granted, they may change their mind over time but.....
A quick example; two months before he was murdered, Lennon said this:
"People got the image I was anti-Christ or anti-religion. I'm not at all. I'm a most religious fellow. I'm religious in the sense of [admitting there is] more to it than meets the eye. I'm certainly not an atheist. There is more that we still could know......that's not anti-religious at all".
Now, I base my conclusion that he wasn't an atheist on that and related statements.
The wider topic of interpretation is a fascinating one and I enjoy it and the various opinions that people hold about various lyrics.

 

[Seafroggys]

To counter your argument, most people don't know what an atheist is, probably even dear old Johnny

For example, throughout my 10 years of being "out of the religious closet" I have juggled around with the label "atheist."

"Oh, I am an atheist. Actually, I'm not. I believe in pagan spirits now. Oh, now I am."

etc. etc. etc.

The fact of the matter is, no matter what label I throw on myself, I've always been an atheist, merely for the fact I don't believe in a supreme creator and deity. Most people think atheists are the anti-christ or a staunch "GOD IS NOT REAL!" sort of bunch, but really, we're not. Lennon really fit the profile of being an atheist.

Remember, he wasn't ever too keen on labels.

But that's because that's all they are...labels. They're unimportant.

And, even if Lennon wasn't an atheist (but he definitely wasn't part of any organized religion either) he definitely wrote about atheist themes...such as in Imagine, God, etc.

 

[adamvelvetu]

Good point Seafroggy's. The definition and its meaning changes to the person. I hate labels. I just know that there is no invisible force judging me. (and i think this gets back to the reason that i am willing to write about songs that express my ideals) I want my songs to be an extension of myself.

 

[NYMorningstar]

Good point Seafroggy's. The definition and its meaning changes to the person. I hate labels. I just know that there is no invisible force judging me. (and i think this gets back to the reason that i am willing to write about songs that express my ideals) I want my songs to be an extension of myself.

I see the issue centering around faith. Faith is your ability to believe without proof. You don't "just know" that there is no invisible force judging you, you have faith there isn't. People having faith in no God are labeled atheist, no big deal. You are what you are.

I have faith there is a God. My trust for him removes all doubt for me. I believe he provides us all with the knowledge to know what's right and I feel a desire to serve Him.

It's up to me to get off my butt and actually so. It's no easy task to be kind, charitable and in service to your community but I sure try hard. I know you can believe in no God and be charitable but I choose to do it in His name and expect nothing in return. His glory has no end and I'm happy to be part of it.

 

[grimtraveller]

To counter your argument, most people don't know what an atheist is, probably even dear old Johnny

Lennon really fit the profile of being an atheist.

Remember, he wasn't ever too keen on labels.

But that's because that's all they are...labels. They're unimportant.

And, even if Lennon wasn't an atheist (but he definitely wasn't part of any organized religion either) he definitely wrote about atheist themes...such as in Imagine, God, etc.

There's not much I can honestly reply to that !:
A man says he is not an atheist. Perhaps I'm just a sucker, but I conclude he is not, coz he says he isn't.
I pointed out earlier in this thread that the lyrics of 'Imagine' were a-theistic. Bear in mind though that that song and 'God' and others of that ilk were written in 1970/71 and his mind changed about alot of things over the years, like the rest of us. And it's simply a documented fact that many, many artists in that 1966-1974ish period wrote from quite a few different perspectives, covering and exploring many themes - often contradictory ones. If you look at Black Sabbath's 1971 "Master of reality" Lp, they cover marijuana, faith in Christ, nuclear destruction, the devil, lonliness, universal hippie brotherhood {this from a band that said they hated hippies}. That kind of scope wasn't unusual in them times.
Labels need to be diffrentiated from meanings of words. If you do not believe God exists, there is a word that describes you. That word is 'athiest'. Nothing to do with a label. If you play guitar, you are a 'guitarist'. Nothing to do with a label. And so on. Mind you, labels are actually quite important. How they are used is where we need to be careful, not whether they are used.
"Most people don't know what an atheist is, probably even dear old Johnny". How can any of us know what most people do or don't know ?
Hmmmm......I used to be an atheist. I decided back in 1977 at the age of 14 that there was no God. I was very definite about that for years. I knew what an atheist was then, at 14. It's kind of stretching the bounds of believability to conclude that a well read, much travelled, world weary, longsearching, heavilly debating guy like Lennon wouldn't know, two or three weeks before his 40th birthday, not only what an atheist was, but whether or not he was one. He simply could not fit the profile of one because he did not fit the description of one. It's a bit like saying you fit the profile of a gay man even though you are not gay. There is a massive gulf there.
To bring the conversation back to the theme of the thread, I think that the songs we write are an extension of ourselves because they come from us. It stands to reason that if art is about expression, then whatever is in us is bound to come out at some point. Loads of songs have been written by atheists that are not anti God. It's not a matter of being anti, it's just seeing the world from a perspective where one doesn't believe God is.

 

[grimtraveller]

The definition and its meaning changes to the person. I hate labels. I just know that there is no invisible force judging me. (and i think this gets back to the reason that i am willing to write about songs that express my ideals) I want my songs to be an extension of myself.

If your first point were true, the world and every society within it would be an incoherent mush where nothing has any meaning and any attempt to describe anything would be a complete waste of time and breath. The meaning of 'atheist' does not change from person to person. It comes from the Greek 'a' {without} and 'theos' {God}. It's coopted into an English meaning which means only one thing. The belief that there is no God.
Secondly, it's a contradiction to say 'I know there is no invisible force judging me'. If that force is invisible, how can you know ? Ultimately it's what you believe. There's a difference.
I can understand you hating labels. I used to too, I really did and I still struggle with being labelled unfairly. But therein lies the key. Labels themselves are actually neutral. We can't exist without labels. We label 'vehicles' with 'wheels' and 'wings'. We label 'animals' that live on land and sea. We label music.....if I said to you "oh, I listened to this great music album yesterday" you'd have virtually no idea where I was going with it. But if I said I listened to some great rap or heavy metal or Irish folk or reggae or C&W, you'd have a clearer idea. If I tell you I'm a 46 year old black guy there's no way you'd be thinking I'm a 74 year old Ukrainian woman....you get me ? Labels are an important part of our world. It's how some of us use them that's often caused so much aggravation.
I totally agree with your last point. I don't like every song I hear and I don't necesarilly like where every artist is coming from, but that's my prerogative. And it's the artist's prerogative to represent their view, regardless. I think that's where quite alot of christian pop and rock fell down. You rarely caught a glimpse of what the artist truly felt. Personally, I'm not interested in propaganda - though it has made for some good songs !