Does anyone make a polarity reversing xlr connector?

  • Thread starter Thread starter coplinger
  • Start date Start date
C

coplinger

New member
I just want a basic connector that switches polarity. I see Shure has one that is switchable for $52, but that's more than I want to spend & I dont need the switchability. I guess I can always make my own, but if someone makes a cheap one, why bother. I need it for connecting to our PA. We've found that reversing the polarity of some of the mics is the only way we can get rid of the annoying RFI in our jam room.
 
A cheap alternative would be to just modify a few cables with the polarity reversed. Just mark them well as reversed so you don't use them where you don't mean to flip phase.
 
Yup- just change a few cables. Nobody makes anything cheaper than that: the Neutrik male-female barrel connectors (that are perfect for that use) cost $17 at best (and are cool to keep in your toolbox for those times you need a quick fix).

However, I'm concerned: polarity flipping shouldn't have any noticeable effect on EMI/RFI pickup in a mostly-balanced system. Something else has to be going on there. Are you sure that you're not having ground-loop problems instead? You may be able to solve the problem better by changing the power setup, using isolation transformers, or even just floating the shield on one end of some of the more critical interconnect cables. How many cables does the polarity-flip trick seem to work on, and where are they coming from and going to? You might even have some mics with internal health issues...
 
skippy-
Thanks for the reply. We have tried running through a power conditioner and a voltage regulator, using a ground lift plug, and running everything in the room from one outlet (both an outlet in the room & another outlet on a different circuit). According to another post I read, this last test rules out a ground loop problem (is this correct?). So my theory is: if we run some of our mics out of phase with the other mics (reverse the polarity), the RFI noise will cancel itself out. We tested this out last night & it worked! At least I think it worked-it didn't get rid of it entirely, but it reduced it to a minimal level. We used a 2 channel mic pre with phase reversal switches to accomplish this. Do you have another explanation as to why this worked other than the phase thing?
 
No idea: that shouldn't actually have worked. So you had the same noise as always when the preamp was in the circuit with one polarity setting, and then had reduced noise when the polarity was reversed? Bizarre: EMI/RFI noise is common-mode, meaning that the same noise is present on both pin2 and pin3: swapping polarity (reversing 2 and 3) should have zero effect.

On the other hand, if the noise was reduced the *whole time* that preamp was in the system, then that points at common-mode issues with the board itself: perhaps the old "pin 1" problem. What board do you have, and what was the preamp you used for your test? What mics are you using: presumably, dynamics like SM58s? And finally: was the noise primarily 60Hz hum and its related harmonics, or was it actually serious RFI (like AM radio, FM, TV interference)? If so, how far away is the tower, and what power are they running?

This is pretty curious to me: I'd like to help you find it if possible. I'd be willing to bet that it you swapped pin2 and 3 on those two mic cables, and plugged them straight into your board, that you wouldn't see the improvement: your improvement was probably *primarily* from the improved common-mode rejection (with respect to your board, anyway) of the separate preamp.

I once had to chase the noise out of a rehearsal-space system that was located right at the base of the WBZ broadcast tower in Needham, MA: hundreds of kilowatts of AM, FM, and TV radiated from only about 100 yards away. _That_ was a bitch (and really expensive!), and completely quieting it was never really possible- but we got it low enough to be usable. I hope you aren't in that situation!
 
You know, I'm not sure if we tried going through the pre without the phase reverse switch on. I'll try that tomorrow. We have a Carvin powered mixer (which one I'm not sure-I can get back to you on that) and the ART TPS mic pre. The mics are sm57's, a peavey dynamic, and a carvin dynamic (not sure model #'s on these last 2) As far as I know there are no TV or radio stations in the immediate vicinity. We pick up 2 or 3 stations at once-the mix & volume of which depends on how many mic cables are plugged in & changes as we move around the room. We have no problem with 60 cycle hum. Am I wrong in thinking that if you have the same signal coming in from 2 mics going to a mono output & you reverse the polarity on 1 of them, the signals will cancel themselves out-that is to say you would only hear the difference of the 2 signals? i.e. if I have one mic with the polarity reversed there should be no change in the RFI, but if I have 1 mic with normal polarity & one with reversed polarity they should cancel each other out & therefore reduce the RFI. If this is wrong, where am I confusing things?
 
Also, please explain "the old pin 1 problem" and "common mode rejection"
 
The mic preamps are balanced differential: they take the *difference* between the signal on pin 2 and pin 3, and amplify that. Your mics put out a signal that goes negative on one pin, and positive on the other pin: identical, except that one is inverted with respect to the other. So the preamp takes those two signals, subtracts them, and ends up with 2x the signal on either one. X - (-X)= 2x. It operates on the _difference_ between the pin 2 and pin 3 signals: thus, "balanced differential".

On the other hand, EMI/RFI noise is common-mode: the same noise signal is applied to both pin 2 and pin 3. When the preamp sees that, you get Y - (Y) = 0, because it is common to both, not differential between them. The noise that is common to both pin 2 and pin 3 should perfectly cancel itself out, leaving *only* the differential signal that you want. So that's why reversing the polarity should not make any difference: when you swap pins 2 and 3 you should still get 0 for the common-mode noise, either way- unless there's a problems somewhere.

"Flipping the polarity" just reverses pins 2 and 3: it doesn't do anything at all to the common mode noise. In other words, it doesn't cause a normal channel to have +noise, and a flipped channel to have -noise, so that summing the channels will cancel the noise. You _can_ do that with in-band signals: audio _will_ cancel out, because the differential preamp can be reversed in polarity by swapping the input pins. But this noise is sneaking in through other means: perhaps coming in via the shields, and mixing in later in the preamp circuitry . By sticking a preamp with better common-mode rejection in in front of the board's preamps, you may be avoiding that problem.

The important thing is that flipping that polarity switch won't do a dadgum thing to the noise, since the mechanism that is used to flip it doesn't have any effect on noise that is sneaking in via the back door.

The old "pin 1 problem" comes when you have circuitry that has the ability to couple noise that is coming in on pin 1 (the shield ground) into the active electronics. This is really hard to design around in low-cost gear, since you have to make sure that signal ground and chassis ground are isolated from one another (or noise that rides in via ground currents can couple into your signal). Once again, it's common-mode noise- but it is getting in via a sneak path.

I wonder if you have some bad mic cables. I'd take the system down to its simplest state: one mic plugged in, ideally the one that contributes the most to the noise. Then, swap in the external preamp and see if that reduces the noise. Try a few different channels, too: there's nothing that guarantees that every channel will behave identically. You may have a cold solder joint inside the board on the input connector to one channel, or any of a number of other things. Swap the cable then, and see how that affects the problem. Carry the mic over to the board, and connect the mic case to the board's chassis with a piece of wire (essentially bypassing the shield in the mic cable). A few experoments like this should show you which link in the chain is the problem.

If you aren't right up against a high-strength RFI field, you shouldn't be having this problem: there must be an issue somewhere in the board's preamps. I don't know a thing about the Carvin preamps, but I can say that designing a mic pre for ideal common-mode rejection, and designing a pre for the lowest possible cost, usually don't go together very well...
 
Thanks-I understand now. I'll try the things you suggested tomorrow & let you know how it goes. The Carvin gear is relatively inexpensive, so it wouldn't surprise me if that is the culprit.
 
Back
Top