Do you rework, or let it stand?

[mrx]

I've been re-examining some of my better songs, going back 20 years in some cases. There are places where certain lyrics - a line, a verse, even a chorus - just make me cringe. It seems 'wrong' to risk undoing (and potentially losing) sentiments that were obviously very important at the time, but it might also make otherwise good material available to my current 'audience'.

I'm curious how the rest of you handle going back and re-working songs - especically those that you had considered 'finished'?

 

[Aaron Cheney]

Never. Going back and re-hashing stuff is just a treadmill. I always try to keep going forward.

I'll sometimes set ideas aside, sometimes for years, until I find the inspiration I need to finish them, but once I think a song is done, I let it go. It's really hard, because you learn so much and then look back, and you see all the flaws in songwriting or recording and you know you could do better now. The problem is you end up re-working a 10 year old idea and get nothing from it but the same song.

I think it's better to keep writing fresh stuff and adding to your catalogue. I truly believe that real quality only exists in the midst of quantity. If I can write 1000 songs, I will be constantly improving and eventually end up with more good songs than if I just kept re-writing the same 20 tired songs.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[mrx]

I agree - you definitely have to keep moving forward. I see too many writers/bands that have been doing nothing but rehearsing their one 'good song', year after year.

I was thinking more in terms of material that was created before learning the 'self editing' process that most writers eventually develop. I know that when I first started writing, nothing changed after pencil was put to paper. Perhaps re-applying some of the 'craft' that comes with experience to the raw materials created from the inspiration of youth might reveal something amazing.

The trick is to avoid the trap you mentioned - spending all of one's time polishing turds...

 

[Gidge]

id say its ok to rework stuff youve done in the past IF you can turn it in to something better......

especially if since the time youve wrote it, you learned a few tricks of the trade....you may have a hit song on your hands outside of a few lines.....it never hurts to try and make something better......

to keep from polishing turds, you of course only have to recognize a turd......if you cant tell good stuff from turds, then you are probably creating new turds and all this doesnt matter.......

Dont fall in love with a song until its on the charts......

 

[mikeh]

One of the hardest things for a writer to learn how to do is "let it go". At some point we all have to accept that the song is "done". (This is also a problem for recording/producing - knowing when enough is enough).

I would much rather put the effort into creating something new rather than rehash something old.

That being said, I must admit I do have a few older songs that I have always felt never reached thier full potential - so on certain rare occasions (when something new isn't ready to present itself) I do pull out an older song and try to re-write.

However, I almost always find that I really don't have that much to add and it becomes somewhat of a letdown - with me thinking I should have simply "let it go".

 

[okobd]

wow, this is timely

I love this topic.
Last night, I played, for the first time in years, the first song I ever wrote. I still know it all by heart, or so I thought. I got thru the chorus and the third verse and realized the chorus was all I had left. Typically this wouldn't be a problem, but my red 3 ring is currently missing(old songs book)Now, that being said, I've certainly learned things over the last 15 years but this song stands as a keeper, done this I know now. I thought to myself, I'll just write another verse. Then I quickly dismissed this idea for this song, because of the feelings 15 years ago that no longer exist.
But, I recently wrote a brand new song, lyrics first, to the tune of Radar Love. I did it accidentally, and loved the words I had just written. I had an old song, that had always been finished musically but I never liked the lyrics. Put 'em together----easy---Wamo! an unbelievable(to me anyway) new song, but still a classic to me. Oh, and this song is finally done!!!
Thanks for reading this rant,
-joe

 

[crawdad]

If its wrong and you know it, you have two choices--throw it out or fix it. The choice is always ours.

 

[terocious]

Your songs are your neighborhood with friends, acquaintances and strangers. On some days the stranger catches your eye. “That song having coffee is hot. I am going to walk write over and strike up a conversation” Mystery is a bottomless cup. From the window you see a song which reminds you of one you used to know but never got close to and you think “Whatever happened to that old song? I should look that song up.” A song drives by in a grey pickup who kicked your ass a few years back. Another song calls up out of the blues and invites you to a pool party. A song you passed by, pissed on, pissed off or primped for is on the other end of the line waiting for your answer. “Well,” you say “Who all is going to be there?”

 

[WATYF]

I totally and 100% agree with the concept of re-writes... and here's why.


Most of my best songs to date are songs that I re-wrote. There's absolutely no reason to trash an entire song just because, at the time, you weren't able to think of anything better for the verse or chorus or whatever.


What happens to me (quite frequently, I might add) is I'll write a song and the verse (or the chorus or what have you) will really be "doin' it for me"... but I just won't have anything great to accompany it, so I just write something "so-so" to go along with it. I used to think that once a song is done it's "done".


But then, one day, I went back and looked at and old song with a chorus that I really liked, and I realized that the verse was just ruining the song. Then I perused through my other stuff and notice that I had a song with a good verse but lousy chorus that would fit perfectly with that chorus. So I did a little cut and paste, and voila... a new song.

I've re-composed about 5 songs now by using old verses/choruses combined with newer choruses/verses... and in every instance, the end product is much better than the either of the originals.


I have a goal to someday go through all my old songs, pick out the parts of the song (verse, chorus, melody, lyric, etc.) that are "diamonds in the rough" and see if I can compile some good songs by using the "better" components of my past tunes.


I understand that this doesn't always work. Don't get me wrong... if you match the wrong verse with the wrong chorus, you'll end up sounding like a schizophrenic... what I'm talking about is sometimes as simple as taking a great melody from an old verse and applying that to a song with a newer, better chorus. My older stuff is almost all about the same subject, so it's easy for me to mix-and-match verses and choruses since they don't often stray to far from each other in terms of content. Most of the time, all I have to do is modify a few lines here and there to maintain fluidity in the song.

I posted a song a while ago called Better.... and you can't tell by listening to it... but the verse was written aboot 6 years before the bridge and the chorus. The original chorus was so lousy and vacuous that it ruined the decent melody/lyric of the verse... and one day I was humming the chorus for Better in my head and I didn't have a verse yet... and for some reason, it occurred to me that the verse of an old song would go great with it... and it did.


I would encourage anyone to at least consider re-writes... you never know how much life you can breathe into your old stuff just by adding a new twist to it. Just make sure you know when to draw the line. If it's a turd, and there's nothing to salvage, you gotta know when to cut your losses and move on.


WATYF

 

[dafduc]

Songs are like kids (though I DID like terocious' analogy) - you gotta take care of 'em til they're out on their own.

A couple of my best had real clinker lines in there. Just a line or two to fix. Maybe the difference between publishable and not publishable. So yeah, I'll fix 'em, but it's usually more productive to move on to the new ones...

Daf

 

[okobd]

yeah, but...

(though I DID like terocious' analogy)

How do you get that new song to stop callin' the house when your wife is right there?
-okobd

 

[Fela]

I have some that keep coming back disguised as new grooves.

Frank Zappa did a thousand versions of Peaches en Regalia.

You can do a rewrite or a remix or whatever but I try to keep doing something new, if only for my sanity.

 

[terocious]

Re: yeah, but...

How do you get that new song to stop callin' the house when your wife is right there?
-okobd

C'mon Baby You Know that song means nothing to me.

 

[Jagular]

Depends.

I don't think there is a "right" answer to this. I tend to leave them alone after a certain period of time. But I do have some old ones that are just begging to be rewritten. I also have some old ones that stink so bad I wouldn't go near them with a hazmat suit .

Although, I did have someone tell me just last week they liked one of those stinky songs and I should do more like that

LOL

 

[trevor machine]

I guess songs are kinda like diseases. Recording them is hopefully like incubating a virus - then copying up the cdrs is like having a few flasks of death which will be unleashed on the world. Heck. I dunno. Is this analogy not working for anyone else apart from me?

I just wanna take a sledge hammer to the treadmill of turd polishing. Keep moving. Why? Because the more stuff you put to tape, the more likely to create something great. Quality kind of comes out of quantity. I mean, that's part of the great thing about recording and creating - the chance bits, the wonderful mistakes. I know people who see all this stuff we do as a craft will feel unsettled by my opinion here, but seriously. Keeping moving is good.

As for the person who said 'don't fall in love with a song until it's on the charts' - are you serious? GMAFB. I mean, I dig irony and sarcasm as much as the next dick, but c'mon. Taken at your word you are chiming in with muck and manure there. In all seriousness. The last place to hear a great song is in the m-effing charts. Jeez.

 

[small]

what the hey...

If you ask me, why not? I mean they are your songs. If they make you cringe & you think you can make them better by re-working them what the hey. I don't see anything wrong with that. As far as losing touch with your 20-years-ago self I wouldn't worry too much about it. You don't have to throw our your old scrap books. & if your 20-years-ago self makes you cringe...

However, I do agree with Aaron in that you shouldn't let it keep you from moving forward. I know I'm always the most excited about the next song rather than the last song.

love on
-small

 

[limoguy]

I HATE re-writes! But...I have discovered that if you are writing to be commercial...you have to be willing to rework stuff. Once I reach a certain place where I feel like the song is "finished" I will sometimes seek the opinion of someone who has more experience with commercial writing than I.

One rule I follow...if you're writing to a commercial market...never fall so in love with a song that you are unwilling to change something to make it more marketable. I may think it's great but if the publishers say something has to change to make it marketable I ain't gonna argue with them.

Rejection is a hard thing when writing is such a personal experience but that's the way it goes.

JMHO

Limoguy

 

[LI_Slim]

I don't think you have to make a choice between rewriting an old song if the idea strikes you and writing a new song. Just do it. Besides, if you're up there playin' the song you can always decide to stick with the old version. You can mix the two. You can change the rhythm or the phrasing or the tempo. Look at the way Dylan fiddles with his songs. Things like this help keep them fresh. You have free will each moment of your existence. A song performed live only exists in the moment of its performance.

 

[Aaron Cheney]

I don't think you have to make a choice between rewriting an old song if the idea strikes you and writing a new song. Just do it. Besides, if you're up there playin' the song you can always decide to stick with the old version. You can mix the two. You can change the rhythm or the phrasing or the tempo. Look at the way Dylan fiddles with his songs. Things like this help keep them fresh. You have free will each moment of your existence. A song performed live only exists in the moment of its performance.

Ya, I can see this point of view. If you think of a recording more as an impression of where you were at that point in time, and expect that 10 years later you may be at a different place. I guess I would think of those more as different interpretations, rather than re-writes. Sting does this too, and Taj Mahal and a million others. I personally like it better when an artist performs their songs differently live than on their CD. I already own the CD. I want to see something new.

But not with a different bridge. Or different words in the verses. I guess I would consider that re-arranging the furniture and a new color of paint, as opposed to doing a remodel and adding a bathroom.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[mrx]

Ya, I can see this point of view. If you think of a recording more as an impression of where you were at that point in time, and expect that 10 years later you may be at a different place. I guess I would think of those more as different interpretations, rather than re-writes. Sting does this too, and Taj Mahal and a million others. I personally like it better when an artist performs their songs differently live than on their CD. I already own the CD. I want to see something new.

But not with a different bridge. Or different words in the verses. I guess I would consider that re-arranging the furniture and a new color of paint, as opposed to doing a remodel and adding a bathroom.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

Funny, but that's sort of the feeling I got when working on the song in question. The live versions of "Rhiannon" and "In Your Eyes" with the expanded lyrics make the originals come alive again. And the way Sting currently does Roxanne live, mellow, but with that pounding build up to the chorus...

Interesting and helpful suggestions from everyone in this thread!