Do you record on Vista/Windows 7

[bigbubba]

Anybody using Windows 7 for recording?

How are you recording? Using a recording interface like firepod, m-audio?

Can you just plug in a guitar (via DI box or out from amp) into the soundcard and play? I was doing this with XP and recording processed or clean signals until I moved to Windows 7 (64-bit). Windows has so much latency just monitoring the line in thru the speakers that it's impossible to play.

I plug my guitar in to the line in (from the amp) and hearing is thru the speakers has so much latency I can't play. It sounds like a delay pedal or so. I have tried the same card in linux and no problems.

If you have Windows 7, can you plug in your guitar and try to play to check how it sounds? Fast rhythm parts and such.

 

[TimOBrien]

On-board soundcards have about 40cents worth of chips in them and are made for beeps, boops and light gaming, not quality music production. They do not have low-latency (ASIO) drivers and are generally POS. Its the card and its drivers that cause latency, not the OS so replacing it will cure your problem.

#1 rule of recording: you MUST replace the onboard.

Go see the soundcard guide over at Tweak's Guide (www.tweakheadz.com) for lists of cards that WORK... you'll also want to bookmark and read through the rest of the Guide, too.

BTW: Vista is going bye-bye to be replaced by Windows7 (actually Vista2). Be aware that Win7 is STILL A BETA PRODUCT and it is not wise to switch to a new OS until its been out (finalized release) at least a year and the inevitable bugs are addressed.... unles you LIKE being an unpaid beta tester banging your head against the wall and waiting for 'fixes'.... STICK WITH XP FOR NOW....

 

[bigbubba]

On-board soundcards have about 40cents worth of chips in them and are made for beeps, boops and light gaming, not quality music production. They do not have low-latency (ASIO) drivers and are generally POS. Its the card and its drivers that cause latency, not the OS so replacing it will cure your problem.

#1 rule of recording: you MUST replace the onboard.

Go see the soundcard guide over at Tweak's Guide (www.tweakheadz.com) for lists of cards that WORK... you'll also want to bookmark and read through the rest of the Guide, too.

BTW: Vista is going bye-bye to be replaced by Windows7 (actually Vista2). Be aware that Win7 is STILL A BETA PRODUCT and it is not wise to switch to a new OS until its been out (finalized release) at least a year and the inevitable bugs are addressed.... unles you LIKE being an unpaid beta tester banging your head against the wall and waiting for 'fixes'.... STICK WITH XP FOR NOW....

I totally agree with your statements about soundcards and such. But the thing is that all build-in soundcards have always worked for me. Even this one in winxp/linux works fine. It just seems that in Win 7 it there is a new driver arch in place.

Also it helps to be able to plug in the guitar late at nite and record all ideas that come to mind. Then of course, it can be re-recorded clean to be vamped, or even mic'd and re-recorded. But you see what I'm saying for quick recordings and stuff. It always worked and if it can, I'd like to make it work. Otherwise, of course, I'll get a recording interface. I am researching a few now. Those PreSonuses look great. Anyway, if those have any issue with Win 7 playing and those recording thru their interface, the recording might still be out of sync.

Other than this issue, Windows 7 has been great. The release candidate is very stable and faster on the same hardware than XP. That is an opinion shared by all Win 7 users. So I'm a little hesitant to move to XP.

I'm just curious if anyone with Windows 7 is able to plug in and play thru their PC speakers whether they're on build in soundcard or dedicated audio interface.

Also checking out the tweakheadz site.

Thanks for your post, I appreciate hearing of other's experience.

 

[oretez]

Generally speaking agree with TimOBrian's post. Unfortunately the list of things (sidestepping completely the ways in which MS's DRM impacts production) that MS describes as 'Audio Innovations' in its marketing are, at best, targeted at consumer home theater and are actually detrimental to production is legion

On board cards have been problematic for years and in ways that, by itself, had little to do with manufacturers cost of components (it is unlikely, on a per channel basis the parts list (for the A/D/A circuit boards) for M-Audio's respected 2496 cost much more then components for on board cards (it has been years since I spec'd this stuff so could be fos but not surprisingly much of the cost of upscale boxes (a category 2496 does not fall into) lies in their analog circuitry)

The CL practice of resampling everything, on the fly, was and remains an issue. (for example)

Main point is that while almost any on board sound card provides performance equivalent to and usually at least slightly better then all but professional cassette decks their design and how they are integrated into the User environment have always been problematic for producing . . . Audio.

While '7' is apparently correcting some of Vista's more egregious missteps, '7' is going to do nothing to modify MS's 'Audio Innovations' . . . Interestingly enough Vista (& '7') moved all audio processing, except (and this is where a bad idea simply goes schizophrenic) the 'driver' out of the kernel . . . This is an idea a bit like GM's El Camino: all the cargo capacity of a passenger sedan with all the comfort and drivability of a P/U. In Vista (& '7') all audio, all the time, is passed, handled, through several software layers (the individual DSP layers designed to improve listenability for home theater) before handing it off to (getting it from) WASAPI . . . WaveRT. And communication is handled 'prioritized' through the registry. While it is possible that some clever programers could write drivers, for content producers, that might, possibly, make all this work with some degree of efficiency . . . there simply is no monetary inducement for anyone to try.

As long as we can figure out how to do some variation of Kernel streaming (by passing OS entirely) . . , e.g. ASIO, this still presents a better (then MS's approach) solution for content producers

Vista, '7', machines can, in all likelihood, be used by casual hobbyists, amateurs, and practitioners looking to access their very limitations as part of the creative process; to create a lot of interesting content. If it's what you have, it's what you use. But reality is even if individuals find ways to, for example, reduce latency, using only MS WASAPI & on board cards they are merely sticking a band aid on something that is effectively broken and not curable. One can be proud of the effort . . . But even if you succeed the entire rat's nest imposes limitations on future development

$90, M-Audio 2496, Emu PCI 0404, might be beyond the reach of some . . . Which again is the point to . . . Use what you've got . . . Innovate via technique, lack of specific gear does limit ability to accomplish specific task, goals, in specific ways . . . Lack of gear is not an impediment to creating something

All of that said . . . Might check out ASIO4ALL, drivers and see if they work with Vista, '7'

They were developed to deal with similar latency issues in WDM systems but might well have been updated for VISTA & '7'. V2.8 I think was to address the WaveRT

But, again for majority of practitioners, even on a home recording forum, a better solution is to not except marketing hype that a general purpose computer can, out of the box, be use as an audio production tool. It was not designed with 'production' in mind and most of the effort of MS during past 20 yr. Has made most Wintel product worse, not better, out of the box tools (for audio production).

 

[bigbubba]

On board cards have been problematic for years and in ways that, by itself, had little to do with manufacturers cost of components (it is unlikely, on a per channel basis the parts list (for the A/D/A circuit boards) for M-Audio's respected 2496 cost much more then components for on board cards (it has been years since I spec'd this stuff so could be fos but not surprisingly much of the cost of upscale boxes (a category 2496 does not fall into) lies in their analog circuitry)

The onboard card were fine for me unless I wanted to use realtime VST plugins to process the sound. That had lot of latency.

While '7' is apparently correcting some of Vista's more egregious missteps, '7' is going to do nothing to modify MS's 'Audio Innovations' . . . Interestingly enough Vista (& '7') moved all audio processing, except (and this is where a bad idea simply goes schizophrenic) the 'driver' out of the kernel . . .

This might explain a lot. If in the previous versions, the realtime sound monitoring was possible and now it's not, it will probably stay that way. Microsoft will probably not change that architecture.

As long as we can figure out how to do some variation of Kernel streaming (by passing OS entirely) . . , e.g. ASIO, this still presents a better (then MS's approach) solution for content producers

I tried ASIO4ALL v2.0 but it said it wasn't available for the line in of my soundcard.

$90, M-Audio 2496, Emu PCI 0404, might be beyond the reach of some . . . Which again is the point to . . . Use what you've got . . . Innovate via technique, lack of specific gear does limit ability to accomplish specific task, goals, in specific ways . . . Lack of gear is not an impediment to creating something

Well, I am already starting to read about some of the m-audio cards and the line 6 recording interfaces with have the farm plugin stuff. How do these deal with such latency issues? Ideally, there will be Reaper recording and doing playback (all multitrack recording functionality). Would a recording interface bypass system latency and sound architecture and allow system to play stuff and record in sync? Without adding latency that is added by recording thru line in? I'm reading about those online but don't see much information on that subject. Also thinking of using GC 30 return policy to get something and try it to make sure it will avoid latency.

I'm still curious tho, whether anyone can plug in and try to play thru speakers and see what if does.

 

[johnnymegabyte]

Also thinking of using GC 30 return policy to get something and try it to make sure it will avoid latency.

I'm still curious tho, whether anyone can plug in and try to play thru speakers and see what if does.

1) GC Return Policy is great idea. Long & McQuade in Canada has similar, and I have used it twice, and 3 times for guitar amp 1 to guitar amp 2 to Zoom G7 processor + cash refund

2) I have yet to hook up my Zoom G7's USB to my new Vista laptop. Used it with REAPER with my XP desktop. Oh yeah, it works great, even for monitoring in real time with 5ms latency. But I hope to in the next coming weeks, and also try out recording from cassette via a Behringer UFO202 USB device ($39.95 CAD) which has proper RCA In + Out (not 1/8" stereo), 1/8" headphone out with volume wheel + Line / Phone Switch. I have been using it for headphone listening, as it is way better than the Vaio built-in sound.
When I get around to testing, I am also gonna try VST amp modeling and see what latency I get.
Also, someone mentioned they were able to use 2 Behringer's UCA202 at once. I'm gonna try to use Zoom USB + Behringer with audio coming from the XP PC going into the Vista laptop and see what happens.

 

[oretez]

The onboard card were fine for me unless I[snip]
I'm still curious tho, whether anyone can plug in and try to play thru speakers and see what if does.

You're basically missing the point. Unless someone were being paid, had masochistic curiosity or very specialized goals (i.e. OP wants to continue to track via on board cards) there is little, if any reason to pursue this. It is trivial information and extremely specific, to specific systems in any case.

For at least the past ten years it is not merely 'common' knowledge, but knowledge available from MS widely distributed white papers that MS imposes so many layers, hooks, goiters, impediments to streaming data that it's audio 'layers' are virtually unusable for multitrack overdubs. (an acquaintance got Nuendo to run under Windows 7 and was/is dealing with 23 ms delay with only a dual track load)

ASIO has never been a perfect solution but Stienberg made it relatively easy for developers who did not want to produce their own proprietary kernel streaming code to make use of ASIO which is why it bubbled to the surface as a de facto standard. I still have better over all performance (in terms of both stability and speed) using Echo's kernel streaming and Audition 1.5 (pre ASIO) then using MOTU's ASIO drivers with Audition 3 (post ASIO).

MS boasts that it's WAVERT (real time) is policed via the registry . . . There is simply no f*&*^%^ way that this approach, certainly out of the box) permits real time multi channel monitoring of streaming data

How bad it will be for any particular system depends of variables that are very specific (to individual systems) these start with processors and relationship between the processor and code (app) you use to record and monitor streaming data. And we are a long way from standardizing multi thread code . . . Additionally specific chip sets, how the MOBO cache and FSB are addressed (utilized) makes a huge difference in performance for streaming audio (and generally speaking none of this stuff is optimized for 'production' as opposed to consumer experience)

The solutions that over the past twenty years have, generally, worked all involve (no matter the OS) sidestepping OS interference with streaming data . . . Monitoring input (available on many low rent entry level audio cards) cuts the lag in half, right out of the box . . . (for example)

That you found performance of on board cards to be acceptable simply means you existed in a relatively specialized niche (with regard to producing streaming data), that it no longer works for you comes as no surprise to most

Solutions are relatively simple . . . Go back to XP (hope that nothing changes in how MOBO cache and FSB are addressed) . . . Move forward to a card that supports some realistic variation of Kernel streaming . . . Learn to live with the delay, you might discover some optimization tweaks that get it down to a functional level for you . . . But that endeavor is primarily individual, personal to you and specific for your individual system, other then simply learning to get used to the delay it is not going to have a lot of broad based applicability (the 'state' of your registry is going to be very specific to your system and dependent not merely on whether you use your recording machine as a general purpose computer but specific implementation (including 'where' the hooks reside in the registry) of network (for example) protocols . . . Things might be working more or less OK then you automatically upgrade a video driver and the entire complexion alters)

Windows 7 is available as a beta, download it, check it out report back . . . It would be appreciated I'm sure

 

[bigbubba]

You're basically missing the point.

I understand the point. My point was that onboard cards werent useable for DSP stuff but were useable for direct monitoring. And that worked fine for me. And I'm curious if it works anywhere for anyone. Not so it can be a legitimate recording solution but so it can be used as a simple late nite recording solution or even a recording solution on any given computer with internet connectivity to download Reaper, plug in guitar and just save off recorded stuff.

For at least the past ten years it is not merely 'common' knowledge, but knowledge available from MS widely distributed white papers that MS imposes so many layers, hooks, goiters, impediments to streaming data that it's audio 'layers' are virtually unusable for multitrack overdubs.

That hasn't been my experience for line in monitoring on any of the previous windows on many boxes that I've used.

MS boasts that it's WAVERT (real time) is policed via the registry . . . There is simply no f*&*^%^ way that this approach, certainly out of the box) permits real time multi channel monitoring of streaming data

I agree with you, the new stuff is just totally useless for realtime monitoring. And I've been reading more people's opinions and some people are really upset over the new sound architecture.

Move forward to a card that supports some realistic variation of Kernel streaming . . .

I'm thinking of moving to recording interfaces. I guess I had to get one eventually anyhoo. Especially for VST DSPs for vamps and etc.

Windows 7 is available as a beta, download it, check it out report back . . . It would be appreciated I'm sure

Hehe, I'm using Windows 7. It's already at Release Candidate.

Lastly, I do appreciate all your posts. The fact that my soundcard worked fine saved me money for long time and gave me more than acceptable quality recordings. But eventually I thought of moving to a real recording interface.

With recording interface, I'm also curious about monitoring not only the input but the also the rest of the tracks being played by Reaper (or software).

Anyway, it seems Windows 7 will not get any better than that. Unless of course, Reaper implements WASAPI which is MS's new direct access to hardware API allowing programs to by pass Windows Mixer.

 

[bigbubba]

1) GC Return Policy is great idea. Long & McQuade in Canada has similar, and I have used it twice, and 3 times for guitar amp 1 to guitar amp 2 to Zoom G7 processor + cash refund

2) I have yet to hook up my Zoom G7's USB to my new Vista laptop. Used it with REAPER with my XP desktop. Oh yeah, it works great, even for monitoring in real time with 5ms latency. But I hope to in the next coming weeks, and also try out recording from cassette via a Behringer UFO202 USB device ($39.95 CAD) which has proper RCA In + Out (not 1/8" stereo), 1/8" headphone out with volume wheel + Line / Phone Switch. I have been using it for headphone listening, as it is way better than the Vaio built-in sound.
When I get around to testing, I am also gonna try VST amp modeling and see what latency I get.
Also, someone mentioned they were able to use 2 Behringer's UCA202 at once. I'm gonna try to use Zoom USB + Behringer with audio coming from the XP PC going into the Vista laptop and see what happens.

Hey, thanks for posting. How's the G7 processor? It's about $300 range. I'm also looking at boss or line 6 processors. I had a DigiTech and I'm ready to try others. I would like to be able to assign certains presets to pedals so instead of pressing up 30 times to find the tone, that one can simply single stomp recall.

Anyway, let me know how your Vista experience goes.

 

[bigbubba]

Ok, if anyone has Windows 7 or Vista, please plug in your guitar and let me know how the latency is. Especially when playing fast and monitoring line in.

But overall, I think most agree that given Microsoft new layers of DSPs with Windows Mixer, it will probably be something with high latency.

So what kinda of audio recording interfaces would people recommend. My main recording will be a guitar and a mic mostly separately recorded. The budget is about $200. Maybe I should open a new thread for recording interfaces....

 

[hardwire666]

I have been using an Emu PCI 0404 in Vista x64 Ultimate for a while now, and my latency stays pretty low (between 5-6 ms). I only record one thing at a time, but even when I'm 10+ tracks deep, with no tracks frozen I still have no reason to raise my latency. Don't forget though the rest of the computer is just as important as the audio interface. If your system can't handle what you throw at it your audio interface wont mean a thing.