Do you really need expensive stuff?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Harvey Gerst
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Harvey Gerst

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In a fairly obscure thread here, I detailed the recording of a Christian Funk group I did a few weeks ago. One song, took about 8 hours total, including mixing and a shortened radio mix. Here's an mp3 of that song:



The session consisted of:

Drums
Kick: ATM25
Snare: SM57
High Hat: MXL 603
Overheads: MSH-1O Omnis
Toms: Sennheiser 604's

Guitar
Pedal board direct to Soundtracs Topaz 32x8 board

Bass
Direct into board

Keyboard
Mono direct into board for piano and organ, stereo for horn stabs

Heather Vocals
Scratch track: Beyer Soundstar Mk II
Final: MXL 190

Backup Vocals
MXL 190

Session Notes
I had Chris (the guitarist) lay down two rhythm tracks which I panned left and right. His solos went to a 3rd track.

Jemal played a mono keyboard track, then we added an organ track, then stereo horn stabs.

On our first recording pass, I recorded drums, bass, rhythm guitar, keyboard, and Heather singing a scratch track. Then I recorded a second rhythm guitar track. Next, I added an organ track, then a stereo horns track.

We brought in all the 3 backup singers (including Heather as a 4th) and I had them lay down 4 backup tracks to give me 16 voices. I moved them around after each take to give me a different vocal density for each track and I didn't let them hear the previous tracks in their phones. On the 4th pass, I just told them to sing whatever they felt like singing.

I had Heather sing a final vocal on the MXL 190, but her scratch vocal had so much more drive, I just used that and didn't worry about the bleed from the speakers. I did use some of the call and responses from the 190 track mixed in with the scratch track. Finally, Chris laid down some lead guitar stuff that sat behind Heather's vocals and that was it.

I used RNC compressors on the vocal, snare, keyboard, organ, and horn tracks to even out the levels. The main reverb was the Lexicon Alex on setting #6 (small room) and I added some reverb during mastering with the Ozone.

Session Two
This Saturday, the group came in to do two more songs. Same setup as before, EXCEPT, we added congas, and there was another backup singer added to the group. I used an MXL V67g for the congas, and for all the backup vocalists instead of the MXL 190.
Why'd I use the V67g? It was already setup on a mic stand (and plugged in) from another group's session.

Again the Beyer Soundstar MkII was used for the lead vocal and shouts track (all handheld).

The whole session took a little over 8 hours and I did the mixes late last night, in the computer (very unusual for me). Here are the results:






The band was very pleased with the results.
 
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Sounds pretty cool, Harvey! I'm sure that my little computer speakers don't do it justice, but that sounds like a pretty nice result. It's obvious that the skill of the engineer is far more important than any limitations in the less expensive gear.

What I really want to ask you about, though, is the difference between the track that you mixed on the board vs those that you mixed in the box. Do you find that they have a significantly different sound? Do you have a strong preference for one over the other? I know you'd prefer not to mix with software, but what did you take from this experience?
 
Gilliland said:
What I really want to ask you about is the difference between the track that you mixed on the board vs those that you mixed in the box. Do you find that they have a significantly different sound? Do you have a strong preference for one over the other? I know you'd prefer not to mix with software, but what did you take from this experience?
Mixing on the board lets me tweak a track while listening to the whole mix in real time. I can't do very much of that working in the computer. For example on "Rejoice", I added reverb in the computer to the "shouts" track, but it no longer sat well with the other tracks. Soloed, it sounded great with the reverb.

I can easily add and adjust effects "live" when I'm going thru the board, but I can't do that with the computer. I run out of computer power too quick, so I just make decisions and commit to them.

BTW, I love listening to these last two tracks with headphones. It really lets me get into the mix deeply and hear some of the subtleties I miss over the speakers.

But, the point is that there was no mic used on this session that cost me over $100, and most were probably in the $60 to $75 range.
 
Well, that was funny. I usually ignore who a thread is by untill I finish reading it to avoid pre-weighting the content. So I didn't realize who wrote this as I read through, then listened to the attached clips, on a thread titled "Do you really need expensive stuff". Because of the title, I thought it was a newbe thread, but it read like someone who's been around awhile. Then I listened to the clips at the end...........

Finally, I scrolled back up to the top, and read the name. Nice job Harvey, I'm sure the band WAS pleased! More to the point, I'm sure anyone sitting around blaming their similar quality gear on their bad recordings will have to wake up and smell the coffee. A point nicely illustrated.
 
Robert D said:
Nice job Harvey, I'm sure the band WAS pleased! More to the point, I'm sure anyone sitting around blaming their similar quality gear on their bad recordings will have to wake up and smell the coffee. A point nicely illustrated.
And that's the other point I wanted to make:

Our Studio B drum/vocal room (where this was recorded) is a small 11' x 11'converted bedroom (with a 7' ceiling) in an old double-wide mobile home.
 
A good engineer/mixer/mastering/room/band/ instruments are 90% of the sound.

I do think "prosumer" gear in the right situation will yield good results. However if world-class mics & pre's were used in the same situation the results would most likely have been even better.

As for these songs in particular, they are quite good sounding. The overall mix is good, nice stereo placement.

Critiques: I would have given more snare. :p
The songs are a bit "scooped" sounding to me.
They're a bit harsh on the high end.

I give the songs a solid A-. :D
 
Harvey Gerst said:
And that's the other point I wanted to make:

Our Studio B drum/vocal room (where this was recorded) is a small 11' x 11'converted bedroom (with a 7' ceiling) in an old double-wide mobile home.

Is there any treatment in the room? Gobos maybe?

Haven't listened to the clip yet but I will when I get out of school later.
 
danny.guitar said:
Is there any treatment in the room? Gobos maybe?
I have six office dividers on L brackets, hanging two to a wall. They were rescued from a dumpster behind an office building.

I can swing them out or change the room acoustics from bright to well damped in about 2 minutes.
 
Is that Heather Moon? Sound like her...and you are in TX.
 
I just listened to all 3 clips and from the band, thru the recording process, and mixing to MP3 = AWSOME. I would LOVE to hear the wav files of those songs.
 
Great Harvey... any chance to post a clip of just the drums?
It can became kind of sticky for people looking for cheap drum mics...

What do you say? ;)
 
I think that Harvey's posted tracks make it obvious that no, you don't really need the expensive stuff...knowledge and experience (and a very talented client) are just as important, if not more. If you put me in behind that Soundtracs would it have sounded as good? I really doubt it.

It was also brought up that, as good as Harvey's mix sounds, if it had been done with top end gear it would've sounded better. To that I say "so what?" (and no offense at all intended towards the poster who said it). This song (I've only listened to the first one, from the other thread it was posted in) is a good song...not my preference in style or genre, but a good song nonetheless. It's also a fantastic mix. So yeah, high-end gear might've made it sound "better", but it doesn't really matter. Maybe if it was a mediocre track that needed some "wow" factor to keep the listener's interest then things would be different, but not in this case. The good song with the good mix wins 10 out of 10 times over the piss-poor song with the "perfect mix" if you ask me.
 
JuliánFernández said:
Great Harvey... any chance to post a clip of just the drums?
It can became kind of sticky for people looking for cheap drum mics...

What do you say? ;)
You're on!

If I get a chance in the next couple of days, I'll post the raw drum tracks for one of the songs.
 
after processing and mixing i can't even remember what mic i used by listening, i have to go back to the track notes
 
tarnationsauce2 said:
Critiques: I would have given more snare. :p
The songs are a bit "scooped" sounding to me.
They're a bit harsh on the high end.

I give the songs a solid A-. :D
Yeah, I probably shoulda pushed the snare up a bit.

"Scooped", I don't understand. I did a frequency analysis of all 3 songs and they're all pretty flat. I didn't use hardly any eq on everything.

At 70, high end is a problem for me. I can still hear some, but I do tend to push it up a little bit. I think during the mastering on the last two songs, I bumped 10KHz and up about +1.3 dB. I probably shoulda left it alone.
 
Harvey. When you said that you mixed 2 on the board and one in the computer, what did you use P-tools ?
 
chance said:
Harvey. When you said that you mixed 2 on the board and one in the computer, what did you use P-tools ?
I mixed "Who You Are" and "Rejoice" in the computer. I mixed "Right Here" on the board.

I used Adobe Audition, because it's so similar to CoolEdit, which I'm VERY familiar with (I was one of their first customers). I rendered all the tracks in the Mackie, then simply loaded the Mackie Hard Drive into my workstation computer.

We do own a Protools HD system (and an LE system), but I'm not comfortable using either one yet.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
I have six office dividers on L brackets, hanging two to a wall. They were rescued from a dumpster behind an office building.

I can swing them out or change the room acoustics from bright to well damped in about 2 minutes.

Office dividers? Without any kind of foam/insulation or anything?

I know most office dividers do have SOME sound absorption properties but nothing that I'd think would make much of a difference.
 
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