Do you really need expensive stuff?

[kojdogg]

yeah i think bottom line and the point of the op is that you don't need expensive gear to get great results. getting way ot and into esoteric intellectual pissing matches just dilutes (with figurative esoteric intellectual urine) the point of that. i definitely contributed negatively to that a while back. it seems like everyone's posting is well-intentioned, but for anyone tuning in, harvey links to some mp3's that provide compelling support of that original assertion in the first couple of pages.

at the same time, i will say, now that i have a couple of nice pieces of gear (though certainly far from the most expensive in their classes or categories), it doesn't hurt either and i don't see anything wrong with wanting or having them.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

At the same time, i will say, now that i have a couple of nice pieces of gear (though certainly far from the most expensive in their classes or categories), it doesn't hurt either and i don't see anything wrong with wanting or having them.

Maybe I should have put the word "need" in all caps. There's nothing wrong with people "wanting" or having better equipment, but often, they confuse it with "needing" better equipment. If you know how to wring out every bit of performance from what you already own, you're way ahead of the game.

So many people seem to feel they must have expensive equipment, when they don't know how to really use what they already own. That was my original point. I could go on for several pages on just this "need vs. want" thing alone.

 

[Fishmed]

Maybe I should have put the word "need" in all caps. There's nothing wrong with people "wanting" or having better equipment, but often, they confuse it with "needing" better equipment. If you know how to wring out every bit of performance from what you already own, you're way ahead of the game.

So many people seem to feel they must have expensive equipment, when they don't know how to really use what they already own. That was my original point. I could go on for several pages on just this "need vs. want" thing alone.

I think your thoughts here tie back to my earlier post. The knowledge gained through experience will allow someone to get more out of the inexpensive gear; whereas, the more expensive gear, USUALLY, does not take as much experience for it to sound good.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I think your thoughts here tie back to my earlier post. The knowledge gained through experience will allow someone to get more out of the inexpensive gear; whereas, the more expensive gear, USUALLY, does not take as much experience for it to sound good.

Sadly, I don't often find that to be true. All too often, someone that can't make a decent recording with what they already have won't do much better with better tools.

Granted, better tools can make the job easier - when you already know what you're doing. Just giving a novice (who doesn't understand mic patterns or placement) an expensive multi-pattern mic, for example, is a recipe for disaster.

Kinda like putting a Geo driver in a Ferrari, and entering him in a race. Is he gonna win? Nope. Is he gonna finish? Maybe, if he doesn't try to win. Is he gonna wipe out? Most likely, if he tries to win.

That's why so many of my posts here deal with theory and examples, rather than recommendations of specific products. My two most often used mantras are:

"Learn to use what you already have."

and

"Mic placement is often more important than mic selection."

 

[kojdogg]

Maybe I should have put the word "need" in all caps. There's nothing wrong with people "wanting" or having better equipment, but often, they confuse it with "needing" better equipment. If you know how to wring out every bit of performance from what you already own, you're way ahead of the game.

So many people seem to feel they must have expensive equipment, when they don't know how to really use what they already own. That was my original point. I could go on for several pages on just this "need vs. want" thing alone.

I definitely hear you Harvey. I was directing that statement (indirectly) to the people here who post their opinions that most of the people here couldn't tell the difference between esoteric/expensive gear and entry-level gear, and it doesn't matter for what the majority of the people here are using the gear for. In some circumstances I'd agree-- experience, skill, technique are way more important, but in general I think that those posters should [ok I'm moderating my own post here ].

 

[Fishmed]

Sadly, I don't often find that to be true. All too often, someone that can't make a decent recording with what they already have won't do much better with better tools.

Granted, better tools can make the job easier - when you already know what you're doing. Just giving a novice (who doesn't understand mic patterns or placement) an expensive multi-pattern mic, for example, is a recipe for disaster.

Kinda like putting a Geo driver in a Ferrari, and entering him in a race. Is he gonna win? Nope. Is he gonna finish? Maybe, if he doesn't try to win. Is he gonna wipe out? Most likely, if he tries to win.

That's why so many of my posts here deal with theory and examples, rather than recommendations of specific products. My two most often used mantras are:

"Learn to use what you already have."

and

"Mic placement is often more important than mic selection."

I do agree with you, that if a person does not have the skills to record, then it really does not matter what they use. I was thinking more of some one who has the basics to record, but perhaps not the expert level to sqeeze every bit out of the equipment out of the inexpensive gear. Using the skills they have, their recordings in general would achieve a better sound with more expensive gear. Is it enough of a difference to justify the price difference? It would probably vary. Sometimes your ears don't know what is missing until you use better equipment.

I do concede to your better judgment Harvey.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I do agree with you, that if a person does not have the skills to record, then it really does not matter what they use. I was thinking more of some one who has the basics to record, but perhaps not the expert level to sqeeze every bit out of the equipment out of the inexpensive gear. Using the skills they have, their recordings in general would achieve a better sound with more expensive gear. Is it enough of a difference to justify the price difference? It would probably vary. Sometimes your ears don't know what is missing until you use better equipment.

I do concede to your better judgment Harvey.

No concessions necessary. We're both right. Most of the people here who ask beginner questions ("What's the best condensing mic under $100?", or "Do I need a condenser mic or a cardioid mic for vocals?") are the people I try to target with long explanations of how this stuff works.

The long term guys (who already know most of this stuff) are more likely to ask more specific and sophisticated questions when looking for a particular piece of gear.

 

[MCI2424]

No concessions necessary. We're both right. Most of the people here who ask beginner questions ("What's the best condensing mic under $100?", or "Do I need a condenser mic or a cardioid mic for vocals?") are the people I try to target with long explanations of how this stuff works.

The long term guys (who already know most of this stuff) are more likely to ask more specific and sophisticated questions when looking for a particular piece of gear.

I look at recording like carpentry. I know a few cabinetmakers who are great artists. They have the basic tools and use them to achieve what their goal is. Now, look at Yankee workshop with Norm McDonald. He has a specific tool for every single complicated step of any project. These are fancy, upscale, expensive tools that only a totally professional shop would be able to afford.

Both cabinetmakers can turn out the same quality of work, but Norm will do it in a very short time compared to the "basic tools" cabinetmaker.

You don't "need" expensive equipment to make a great recording, it is just much harder and demands some creative solutions to problems that expensive equipment can fix with the flip of a switch (sometimes).

A pro shop has no choice, if they want to turn a profit, than buy quality equipment and have lots of it. The home recordists can do recordings that will rival, and sometimes beat a pro shop. But, they have the luxury of spending relatively unlimited time to make the final product great. Pro shops have a budget of weeks and do many albums a month.

This BBS seems to make too many grey areas about pro vs. home equipment and too many arguments spawned because of it.

There is no argument, except among the ones who truly either don't understand the difference or don't want to, that pro equipment is far better than home-type equipment for many more reasons than just sound.

Home recording is just that, recording done in the home. The best equipment for this is what you can afford and the best tool you can have is experience with your studio. If you could walk into Abbey Road and put up a mic, play the guitar and record it, it would hit you straight between the eyes that the mic, console and recorder are almost insignificant compared to the highly engineered and properly built rooms and monitoring environment.

That is where the home recordists should look. Learn your equipment, fix your rooms and record.

The best _____ for under $100 is:
research, knowledge and experience in YOUR studio with YOUR equipment.

 

[bubbagump]

Now, look at Yankee workshop with Norm McDonald.

Norm MacDonald

Norm Abram

 

[JuliánFernández]

I look at recording like carpentry. I know a few cabinetmakers who are great artists. They have the basic tools and use them to achieve what their goal is. Now, look at Yankee workshop with Norm McDonald. He has a specific tool for every single complicated step of any project. These are fancy, upscale, expensive tools that only a totally professional shop would be able to afford.

Both cabinetmakers can turn out the same quality of work, but Norm will do it in a very short time compared to the "basic tools" cabinetmaker.

You don't "need" expensive equipment to make a great recording, it is just much harder and demands some creative solutions to problems that expensive equipment can fix with the flip of a switch (sometimes).

A pro shop has no choice, if they want to turn a profit, than buy quality equipment and have lots of it. The home recordists can do recordings that will rival, and sometimes beat a pro shop. But, they have the luxury of spending relatively unlimited time to make the final product great. Pro shops have a budget of weeks and do many albums a month.

This BBS seems to make too many grey areas about pro vs. home equipment and too many arguments spawned because of it.

There is no argument, except among the ones who truly either don't understand the difference or don't want to, that pro equipment is far better than home-type equipment for many more reasons than just sound.

Home recording is just that, recording done in the home. The best equipment for this is what you can afford and the best tool you can have is experience with your studio. If you could walk into Abbey Road and put up a mic, play the guitar and record it, it would hit you straight between the eyes that the mic, console and recorder are almost insignificant compared to the highly engineered and properly built rooms and monitoring environment.

That is where the home recordists should look. Learn your equipment, fix your rooms and record.

The best _____ for under $100 is:
research, knowledge and experience in YOUR studio with YOUR equipment.

Do we have a sticky or what?!?! Great man, just GREAT!

 

[Fishmed]

I look at recording like carpentry. I know a few cabinetmakers who are great artists. They have the basic tools and use them to achieve what their goal is. Now, look at Yankee workshop with Norm McDonald. He has a specific tool for every single complicated step of any project. These are fancy, upscale, expensive tools that only a totally professional shop would be able to afford.

Both cabinetmakers can turn out the same quality of work, but Norm will do it in a very short time compared to the "basic tools" cabinetmaker.

You don't "need" expensive equipment to make a great recording, it is just much harder and demands some creative solutions to problems that expensive equipment can fix with the flip of a switch (sometimes).

A pro shop has no choice, if they want to turn a profit, than buy quality equipment and have lots of it. The home recordists can do recordings that will rival, and sometimes beat a pro shop. But, they have the luxury of spending relatively unlimited time to make the final product great. Pro shops have a budget of weeks and do many albums a month.

This BBS seems to make too many grey areas about pro vs. home equipment and too many arguments spawned because of it.

There is no argument, except among the ones who truly either don't understand the difference or don't want to, that pro equipment is far better than home-type equipment for many more reasons than just sound.

Home recording is just that, recording done in the home. The best equipment for this is what you can afford and the best tool you can have is experience with your studio. If you could walk into Abbey Road and put up a mic, play the guitar and record it, it would hit you straight between the eyes that the mic, console and recorder are almost insignificant compared to the highly engineered and properly built rooms and monitoring environment.

That is where the home recordists should look. Learn your equipment, fix your rooms and record.

The best _____ for under $100 is:
research, knowledge and experience in YOUR studio with YOUR equipment.

and from another thread:

I have had to mix 24 tracks of rock music done with Mackie pre-amps and in this context, the pre-amps slaughtered the whole mix bad. The low end was muddy, the midrange had a "honk' that I never could get rid of completely. There is no fixing stackup of cheaper pre-amps because you can't get back any of the actual detail of the recording. It ends up like looking at a low resolution pidture on your computer. The Focusrite pre-amp line are actually good (at least the platinum series) and probably would not contribute much to the stackup problems, but the end goal of buying any pre-amp is to bypass the stock pre.

Some low end gear makes it next to imposible to a great recording. You can get the best mic positioning, but other gear in the chain can make it difficult to get you where you want to be. In the case of the second quote, MCI2424 would not have to spend hours (?) on end trying to EQ the tracks had he used better mic pre from the start. Of course a good engineer (not saying MCI isn't) would know how to EQ the tracks in a timely manner, but would it still have sounded as good if he used a better mic pre to start with? On top of that, would you need a GREAT EQ to fix such a problem or would a budget EQ just add more muck to the mess?

 

[Fishmed]

Norm MacDonald

Norm Abram

Now we need a picture comparison between Bob Vila and Dragon.

 

[mshilarious]

Now we need a picture comparison between Bob Vila and Dragon.

Bob Vila:

Dragon:

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Some low end gear makes it next to impossible to make a great recording.

I can't argue with that statement at all; we're in complete agreement there.

 

[fraserhutch]

I think the point is, a fair amount of low end gear is perfectly serviceable and can be used to make great recordings.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I think the point is, a fair amount of low end gear is perfectly serviceable and can be used to make great recordings.

I can't argue with that statement either; we're in complete agreement there.

 

[bubbagump]

I think some cheap equipment is crap... and some good equipment is better... and some better equipment is less than adequate.... but better than crap... Though if it is better, sometimes you have less...Though some equipment is better than none... unless it is really crappy... then none is sometimes better than some. However much you have that is good be it better or worse, you always want more.

 

[MCI2424]

and from another thread:




Some low end gear makes it next to imposible to a great recording. You can get the best mic positioning, but other gear in the chain can make it difficult to get you where you want to be. In the case of the second quote, MCI2424 would not have to spend hours (?) on end trying to EQ the tracks had he used better mic pre from the start. Of course a good engineer (not saying MCI isn't) would know how to EQ the tracks in a timely manner, but would it still have sounded as good if he used a better mic pre to start with? On top of that, would you need a GREAT EQ to fix such a problem or would a budget EQ just add more muck to the mess?

You are right. The lower end stuff has to be carefully selected because it is not apples to apples. For instance, the older Mackie pre-amps were not very good (as I said in the second post), but for not much more $$$, the A&H pre-amps are really good. The difference in cost is not very much at all. The trick (as Mr. Gerst tells) is to find out what works and what does'nt. I always advocate better equipment, but if you are just a hobbiest with a family to feed, there are good low cost pre-amps that will do the job (DMP-3 for example). The worst example is the choosing of all bad low cost equipment.

No-one can really argue that better equipment will not get a better recording, but most people have their $$$ limits.

BTW: I was handed the tape recorded at another studio and no EQ, now matter how expensive, can fix anything that is lost in the original recording. Too bad because the songs were really good (for once).

 

[chessrock]

What kind of clouds the whole picture up ... is that most people start out with cheap gear. And it's kind of hard to make that cheap stuff sound decent, when the person at the helm of said cheap equipment ... doesn't know his ass from his elbow.

.

 

[kojdogg]

What kind of clouds the whole picture up ... is that most people start out with cheap gear. And it's kind of hard to make that cheap stuff sound decent, when the person at the helm of said cheap equipment ... doesn't know his ass from his elbow.

.

i thought that was clearly established though in a less demeaning way... encouragement, guidance and inspiration (such as the clips harvey posted w/ gear list & tracking info) will make a much greater impact... than belittling people and their efforts... everyone starts out as a beginner and with some degree of ignorance... some with more experience and skill want to help teach, guide and encourage... some are more invested in keeping people down and 'in their place.'