Do you ever co-write when songwriting?

ido1957

9K Gold Member
My friend Mike and I have gotten together once a year over the past couple of years for two or three days to co-write songs. We practice other times or bring pretty complete songs to the table. But these songwritng sessions are specifically for co-writing. Last year we wrote four songs - three of "his" and one of "mine" (main writer and singer). They turned out pretty good. It's an opportunity for us to focus on it and tends to get good results. We're planning on getting together next week (both taking holidays).

Do you ever get together to write with a co-writer? How's your experience been with it?
 
I don't know a single other person who even plays a musical instrument and the idea of writing lyrics would be cause for laughter among the people I do know
 
I have collaborated with others twice before. Once the egos are out the door the process seems to make the songs better. Ground rules: No suggestions are bad, they're just suggestions. After all the input is on the table start rewriting and no more input until the rewrite is finished. Then start over. REpeat until done or sick of the song/idea.

It seems to work for us. Have a great weekend. Can't wait to hear what comes from it. :D
 
I have a couple of people I co-write with. None of us live close (same state but different cities) - so we don't get together as often as we would like. Of the songs I've had published/placed...the co-written songs actually have been more "successful" (ie: generated more income) than songs I've written solo. I think every writer/musician is subject to his/her own limitations - but a collaboration can add strengh to a single writer's weaknesses (or it can result in complete chaos:eek:)

Co-writing is an interesting and challenging process. As up-fiddler indicates, the first and hardest hurdle is to leave personal egos at the door. Each of us, as writers, loves each child dearly and having someone suggest your child is lacking can be an ego bashing experiance.

When I co-write I try to have something started, but not very developed (maybe have a chorus but not a verse or maybe the first verse but nothing else) - just to have something to start with. If the song is too developed to start, it can be hard to let go and allow someone to change it (like a one year old child) - but if it is just a fragment (a fetus????) I am not yet attached to it enough to mind if someone trys to change it.

I find if we go into a co-writing session with nothing, getting started takes too long. The area between having nothing to collaborate on vs. having too much to want to change is a fine line indeed!!
 
I'm in two groups in which both have only two people. I think the co-writing is cool because I dont feel like I'm playing the same thing I would be playing every time. They have a good enough influence on my writing to change what I feel I always sound like. I hate writing my own melodies so when I sing someone elses melody , I tend to like it much more. It feels to me that I always fall into my own cliches and having a co writer there helps me get out of that. One of the people that I write with is a bit more unique with his musical taste and likes some more out there stuff. This influences me to try and write something more that he can like too rather than just writing for myself. All in all, co writing is a good thing I'd say and refreshing if you're always writing on your own.:)
 
I never have. I am a member of an on-line songwriting community and hope to try one day though. Hopefully with someone who is more a musician than a lyricist :)
 
So you’ve reached that point in your career where you need to expand beyond your own boundaries. Or you’re suffering from a bout of writer’s block and don’t know where to turn? Perhaps you have a binder choc full of unfinished works? Or maybe you just really like the idea of working close with (an)other talented individual(s)? Collaboration is the next obvious step! But it can be a very frightening boundary to cross. So many questions about “whit if” scenarios begin to cloud your judgment as to weather or not this is the road for you. Clear your mind and read on. The rest of this page is dedicated to educating you as to what you should and shouldn’t do.

If you’re questioning the concept that collaboration agreements aren’t really all that important than perhaps you should consider this simple but all too true fact: All famous song-writing teams have Collaboration Agreements, signed, sealed and witnessed. For example: Lennon and McCartney, Henley and Frey, Bacharach and David, Goffin and King, Mann Weil and Spector, Wine and Sager, McDonald and Loggins.

I cannot stress enough how important this next statement is: “Do not commence any projects without a written collaboration agreement and if the other parties refuses to sign find new partners.”

So now maybe you feel it’s a little more important to have a valid, legal agreement in place. If so, read on for everything you need to know about drafting an agreement can be found below…FOR FREE!


Here are the important clauses to have in your agreement. Remember, these should be considered mandatory. Even if there is no intent of malice, you need to cover as many angles as you can! The following is a condensed version of what I have learned during my research on this topic.

1. Joint Work
This is where you state the name of the song and who is responsible for lyrics and music.

2. Ownership
Each party normally owns 50% of the song and co-owns the joint work.

3. Grant of Rights
As joint owners either party may exploit the song and grant nonexclusive licenses. However each co-owner must account for the money that is generated from the nonexclusive license and reimburse the other co-owner when money is received.

Public Performance Agreements must be entered into with such companies as ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, or SOCAN. All income must be divided.

a) Mechanical Licenses. Any co-owner can grant them but must account to and pay the other
co-writer.

b) Print Rights. All co-owners must agree.

c) Sub-publishing rights. All co-owners must agree


4. Division of Income
Any and all income is to be shared by the co-owners 50/50.

5. Pursuit of Infringement
It is an obligation between all co-owners to protect the copyright.




6. Copyright Duration
The copyright will last for a period of fifty (50) years from the date of publication

7. Copyright Transfers
Each collaborator, independently of the other collaborator, has the right to transfer his copyright ownership to another party. The transfer may be for the full copyright share of the collaborator to a publisher, or a partial copyright transfer to a co-publisher. A collaborator may also grant all administration and supervision rights of the collaborator's share to a third party as the publishing administrator, while still retaining ownership of the copyright. If one collaborator transfers his copyright interests to a third party, but the second collaborator does not do the same, then the third party would co-own the copyright with the other collaborator. At the same time, the second collaborator has the option to transfer his copyright interest, in whole or in part, or just the administration rights, to the same new owner as did the first collaborator or to a different party.

Unless either collaborator has granted to the other collaborator administration rights in the copyright for the song, the new co-owner will have to share decision-making and the publisher's income share with the collaborator who did not transfer his interest.

8. Different Performing Rights Society Affiliations
Each co-author may belong to a different Performing Rights Society. If that is the case, than a share of the performance income will be allocated to each collaborator's affiliated Performing Rights Society. Each performing rights group, would receive its allocated share and report to the collaborator/member affiliated with it the latter's performance income share as songwriter and as
co-publisher.

9. Songwriters as Members of Different Band
In the event one of the collaborating songwriters is a member of a band and the other is not, the collaborator who is a member of the band will have the authority to allow the band to rehearse and perform the collaborated song in live concerts and to record the song for release on phonorecords, CDs, MP3, Real Audio, or other Internet media.

However that band member collaborator must account to the other collaborator.





10. Controlled Composition Clause
The recording artist/collaborating writer will be required to obtain permission from the collaborating member that is not a band member for a reduced mechanical royalty for any record contracts the band member enters into.

11. Co-Accounting
Any income that either collaborator writer receives from the commercial exploitation of the song, whether it is from his or her own use or from use by an authorized third party, must be accounted for and apportioned to the other collaborating songwriter. Such payments should be made in a timely manner, for example, no less than 30 days after receipt. Also any statements that accompany the payments to the first collaborator should be copied and forwarded with payment to the other collaborator.

12. Future Generations
The rights of each deceased co-author will pass on to the benefit of the heir(s) and descendant(s) of that co-author, either by way of a will (testate) or without a will (intestate) . If there is no will the distribution will be governed by state statutes, usually to surviving spouses and children, on a first priority basis, before other relatives. It then will be the heir or executor of the state of the deceased who will have the authority to grant and make decisions with respect to the use of a collaborated composition. As well, the surviving collaborator will have the authority to continue to exploit the song while having a reporting and payment sharing obligation to the deceased's descendants or executor. The estate of the deceased collaborator can exploit the song too, but, in turn, must account to the surviving co-author.

13. Governing Laws.
The laws the State or Province you reside in govern this agreement.

All notices issued under the terms of this Agreement shall be in writing delivered by fax, personal service, first class mail, postage prepaid or by registered mail to the following location:

<< Insert your Name, Address & Fax Number >>

If any clause is held to be invalid, illegal, or unenforceable, the validity, legality, and enforceability of the remainder of this Agreement will continue unaffected.



Neither party will be responsible for failure nor delay in performance due to circumstances beyond its reasonable control such as labor disputes, natural disaster, war, riot, embargo, or any act or condition beyond the reasonable control of the non-performing party.

The agreement constitutes the entire agreement between the parties relating to its subject matter and supercedes all prior representations, discussions, negotiations and agreement, whether written or oral.

Signed and witnessed by both parties
 
I don't know a single other person who even plays a musical instrument and the idea of writing lyrics would be cause for laughter among the people I do know

You need new friends... then again ... so do I... wanna be my friend?

:D:D:D:D:D
 
Ido I have 2 current collaborators:
a) I've been working with on & off since '84 and b) currently more inactive than not, I've worked with since about 04.
In a) it's been a collab of music & lyrics though leaning more one way than the other we both work through difficult sections etc. The last two songs have been music by me & lyrics/melody by Terry. On our most recent collab however I decided to shake things up & provided the chord progression as well as lyrics & Terry has worked up a melody. It was tough for him to be so restricted but the results seem goo. Again just to break up the pattern.
With b) I've provided music plus lyrics & Miriam developed the melody so I basically pushed Terry into Miriam's role for the shake up.
Being that both collabs are now long distance &/or via e & snail mail actually working up the musical side together has been difficult.
I'll be looking for other ways to manage in the future including weekenders I hope. There's always the prob of finally getting together & one of us having had a bad week at work etc & the process being thwarted by that - mind you it might move to catharsis which can be fairly productive if not too much booze gets involved.
Is Sweet Addiction a collab or your song with Mike on bass?
Whichever it may be you should ensure you keep enough space in your head for that process as the results are consistently spectacular.
 
I used to think that it would be terrible to co-write, but you know...

I actually have started doing it a little bit, and it's really fruitful. Often you can get ideas that are more developed, even if you have the entire concept planned out, just because there's someone else approaching it. I think what works best is if someone is designated to have a bit of executive power over it just to keep things running in the right direction (ideas that serve the purpose of the production, instead of taking it in a different direction... unless that's waht you want)

There is definately a different art to writing with someone else, and it will differ depending on who you write with, or what you want to acomplish. It's a game of psychology and preminition, and tact. Often, the best thing with writing with other people, just as many aspects of recording (dealing with musicians) how you put things is everything, not even as much as what you're saying. "your guitar is fucking out of tune" vs. "ah I need some more coffee, why don't we grab some coffee, then tune up and get back to the grind." . . . "That doesn't fit with the song" vs. "Why don't we try this as well..we can record both and then figure out which one is our favourite." etc.. And to the thought that it's impossible to keep a bit of control over the project when bringing in someone else... Just think logically about what you need help with and what you don't, and get to know the person's style that you're working with... purposefully leave parts open that you wouldn't mind going in totally different directions, or would love someone else to take freedoms with, and close off the bits (lots of orchestration works well) that you are set on.

oh, on a side note, A pretty interesting book that has given me some major head starts on dealing with folks in the studio or while writing, how to win friends and influence people, by dale carnege. I know it sounds lame, like a self help book, but it isn't, it's all about the psychology of how to put things to get your point accross more effectively and get what your after.

With lyrics, often with me, it's a brainstorm between the vocalist of my primary project and myself. We'll write the melodies and vocal "sounds" first, then put lyrics that follow the right patterns, stresses, sounds, and ultimate impact. This also can be of help, especially doing the type of stuff we do (which can be walking the fine line of sarcastic/angry and juvinile/stupid). There's a bit more of a safety net to coming up with ideas that don't suck.
 
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