Do you constantly revise, or do you say it's done

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ido1957

ido1957

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Do you have a problem considering a song "finished"? Do you find yourself revising lyrics all the time? (I guess I should say lyrics or anything like chords/structure etc) Are constant revisions a bad thing or are you just trying to make it better? What are the positive or negative aspects of constantly revising or just saying it's done?
 
I do both in a way.

I never really consider a song fully "done". However, I do consider a song "ready" and therefore no longer my prime focus.

It's "ready" when I commit it to a recording and am happy to play it to other people. By this time I have played it over and over and any major changes are done.

But it can always change :)
 
I think one of the hardest things for any writer is to "know" when a song is done.

I spend a fair amount of time doing re-writes as part of the initial writing process (improving lyrics, making the melody better, etc). But I always try to find a point where the writing process is complete.

Then I move on to the "producing" part of the process - and candidly, that is where I have my biggest problem knowing when enough is enough. I tend to try to over produce (adding too many guitar parts, trying to come up with riffs,riffs and more riffs, etc.)

It is at the producing stage that I sometimes fail to accept that a song is complete and candidly, it may often be outside influences that force me to accept a finish - examples being, the singers are waiting to come in and lay down their tracks, my writing partner wants to actually send something to the publishers, etc.

A few years back, I use to drive my wife nuts cause I never seemed to get anything complete. Given that I was spending significant amounts of of money on studio gear I guess she logically thought I would actually finish a recording project from time time - I finished other peoples projects - just none of my own :D Only after her pointing out that I was an anal compulsive perfectionist wanna be - did I finally start to learn how to let go and accept that a song was "done". I actually now have some "finished" songs - which I keep thinking I may re-record to make them better :D
 
For me, the easiest thing to do is proclaim a song finished ... when it happens. I just have a hard time wrapping things up sometimes. But when I do, I usually have no problem calling it a done deal and closing the chapter.
 
word to the wise

ido1957 said:
Do you have a problem considering a song "finished"? Do you find yourself revising lyrics all the time? (I guess I should say lyrics or anything like chords/structure etc) Are constant revisions a bad thing or are you just trying to make it better? What are the positive or negative aspects of constantly revising or just saying it's done?
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For me as well as ive seen other industry pros, (while i watch and learn) The writing goes in stages, Once it is song formatted, then you re-write,
Once you are happy with the re-write it is time to record a rough vocal recording of it. Just to be able to show your "net" people who will critique your stuff, people who are not afraid to hurt ur feelings. Also your net should include a few people who have NO musical no how - representing ur average listener. THen people who are producers, writers, fellow song writers. Once you GEt ur feed back from this NEt - now it is time to fix it up.
You will have errors, or lots of feedback to fix on it. Then as you produce its a mixture of recording and Re-writing. Sometimes Record the song and mess with the melodies, mess with the delivery, mess with the effects and filters. This may take a lot of experimenting but when done right its worth it. A trick i Use is to take my lyrics sheet and have the original- then sorta mix the bars up. I.E.
She dont like it when it rains-
It reminds her of her pain."
(write using yellow legal pads its the best and most industry peeps use it. It allows you to write in bars and spread your words out like this.
She dont like
IT
When it rains
It
reminds her of
her pains

See by just splitting the lyrics you have, and delivering them diff a whole new melody or sound can be born. Be creative and flip everything around. Using the yellow legal paper lets u write line for line and its easy to read.
After this step is when i do the most re-writing, and some times just total re-construction. For me its alot easier to change the lyrics around then to change all the music. The final step after producing is to let your net each listen to "JUST" the instrumentals - and see what they think about half way through it. Some times the lyrics can be great - its the music thats off. THen after you get that feedback let them listen to the full version with vocals and everything mixed in.
After that i consider my song DONE.
 
I personally think the most crucial factor in writing lyrics is the color of the paper. Yellow, as has been stated above, is obviously by far the best choice, but pale blue has its admirers, particularly when used in conjunction with mauve ink.

A little known fact is that Bob Dylan ordered a customised notebook of emerald green pages for the sole purpose of writing 'Like A Rolling Stone'. The results speak for themselves.

The most important aspect of this quest for harmonious color in writing materials is personal preference. In much the same way as some of us favour the playability of a Gibson over, say, a Fender, there are those for whom yellow legal pads simply do not facilitate the spontaneous flow of textual imagery. In such a case, it is important to consider more avant-garde hues, such as pink or purple. Only then will true creativity be unleashed.
 
32-20-blues

I've read so many of your posts and I truely admire your ability to get to the real heart of the issue. While there may be numerous conceptual debates about the value or re-writes, the comparitive value of lyrical substance, the perceived importance of melody and the theory of chord progressions......you have once again hit on the one factor which clearly is more important than all the rest........the color of the paper.

You are my new musical hero :D :D :D
 
mikeh said:
32-20-blues

I've read so many of your posts and I truely admire your ability to get to the real heart of the issue. While there may be numerous conceptual debates about the value or re-writes, the comparitive value of lyrical substance, the perceived importance of melody and the theory of chord progressions......you have once again hit on the one factor which clearly is more important than all the rest........the color of the paper.

You are my new musical hero :D :D :D
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Why thank you, although I should warn you that I am a tempremental muse. However, I will take my new status as hero seriously.
 
I'm not so sure.

I was with you all the way - yellow, emerald green (oh yes!) and pink (especially good for emotional content). The use of mauve ink as an advanced technique I can see only too well .. and then you went and brought in purple.

Purple paper is simply anti-song.

It matters not the colour of the writing implement, or the ink it contains, when faced with a solid purple. It is simply not possible to write a hit song on purple paper.

You, sir, are an imposter and I claim my £5.
 
Freddy said:
I'm not so sure.

I was with you all the way - yellow, emerald green (oh yes!) and pink (especially good for emotional content). The use of mauve ink as an advanced technique I can see only too well .. and then you went and brought in purple.

Purple paper is simply anti-song.

It matters not the colour of the writing implement, or the ink it contains, when faced with a solid purple. It is simply not possible to write a hit song on purple paper.

You, sir, are an imposter and I claim my £5.
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You're just taking what 32-20 said and making it unfunny.... :(
 
I constantly revise. :confused:



I rewrite time and again. :rolleyes:



I continuously change. :eek:



I tweak it forever. :cool:



I am never happy with it. :mad:



I wake up in the night and write a new chorus. :(



....... you get the idea. :D
 
ido1957 said:
Do you have a problem considering a song "finished"? Do you find yourself revising lyrics all the time? (I guess I should say lyrics or anything like chords/structure etc) Are constant revisions a bad thing or are you just trying to make it better? What are the positive or negative aspects of constantly revising or just saying it's done?
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I just can't wait to get the damn lyrics finished. Two verses and a chorus and if I can get away with repeating the first verse then I'm done. Sometimes I'll stick in a temporary line, mull it over for a bit and then stick in a replacement.
The colour of the paper doesn't bother me, but I find a good pen to be a real bonus. I've got this old Parker that writes real smooth. It seems to help keeping the flow going
 
Bulls Hit said:
I just can't wait to get the damn lyrics finished. Two verses and a chorus and if I can get away with repeating the first verse then I'm done. Sometimes I'll stick in a temporary line, mull it over for a bit and then stick in a replacement.
The colour of the paper doesn't bother me, but I find a good pen to be a real bonus. I've got this old Parker that writes real smooth. It seems to help keeping the flow going
Click to expand...

Joking aside, I love writing with a good pen.

As for your earlier point, don't be afraid of short songs. If you can condense it, it's good. Think country music: not to everyone's taste, I know, but when it comes to disilling a world of hurt into two lines, they do it well.

Most of what I write has eight lines max, often without a chorus.
 
I'm kinda like mikeh in that I tend to over produce when I'm in the recording phase. When I am in the writing phase, I always triple space the lyrics so that I can try different words until I get it just so. I am always adding words and trying new ways to say it in a way that will give the listener an image of the people and action, while trying to make the lyric as ecnomical as possible. The fewer words or ideas, the better.
In the recording phase, I will still change a word or two but by that time I'm solid in what I want to say and how to say it.
One thing I have learned when arranging a song is to simplify the arrangement so that I can hum the melody and any fills/riffs as a continuous
melody, with a beginning, middle and end. If it's too complex, I will simplify further till I can go all the way thru and it will have continuity .


chazba
Also I try to stick to "WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHEN and WHY. Anything more is fluff and if you are trying to stay under 3 minutes, fluff will kill you.
 
Usually I say "It's done" and then record it. Then I drive around and listen to it in the car and decide that several lines sound lame and see the need to re-revise. But then after all the work I put into recording, I just end up keeping the original shit and declaring the whole thing lame. If I ever got the chance to make a commercial album, I'd have a whole drawer full of this lame fodder and a pretty good idea of what needs fixed.

The few songs I have the opportunity to do live are dynamic in the lyrics. i try this and that with the intent of finding the perfect iteration. Fleeting.
 
i revise to a certain point and then it's done. then i record and might revise that, plus revise the lyrics again a bit, but them i'm done. usually.

then again my friend Ricky who is one of the best writers i know, get's to know a song for maybe six months, constantly altering the lyrics just a bit here and there until he finally thinks it's done. and his stuff is good.
 
I am not a songwriter, but as a composer and arranger I constantly revise. One of my cuts on my CD I originally did in 1986. :eek: It went through maybe 10 versions in 20 years. Another cut had years worth of revisions.
 
So I'm finishing up the vocal tracks for my CD to be out this spring. I'm listening to like the 5th "final mix w/ full automation. The faders are sliding up and down... it's a regular festival of robotics. But I'm not comfortable with this song. After a lot of tracks and mixes, something makes me uneasy...There is a word here, an inflection there...a vowel that I didn't handle quite right....Some of this material I've been tweaking for half my adult life and I'm still not satisfied. Maybe this is a form of mental illness.
 
i suppose i revise songs all the time. but in my mind i see it as a "very slow writing process"... some songs have spent months and months and months on the piano or guitar or in my head, and never "finished"... the strange thing is, they almost Always contain a musical fragment that i came out with in the first two or three minutes of sitting down at an instrument, and Always contain that musical fragment - be it lyrical or musical. and that Will stay the same.

but i don't tend to do 'normal' chorus-verse... structures - repetition is the aim of my game :p

Andy.
 
Of the few lyrics I have written, the only ones I have finished are the ones that I wrote complete in 5 minutes. Very few of them are started then come back to at a later date. I have bits of lyrics which started to come out like it would be a 5 minute job only to have them stop, never to be added to again. I got this one which I like but have never been able to finish it:

White as a ghost
Grey as a mule
Black as a jet
Orange as a fire

One before two
Two more to go
Two is twice
One you know

Everybody is waiting for you
They wanna see what you will do
Everybody is waiting for you
They wanna see if you will make it through

....then I wanna go into one or two more verses, then back to that chorus thing and that's it. But I can't think of anything else. I don't even have a theme for it.
 
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