Do you check your mix in mono?

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TravisinFlorida said:
I can't believe you let your daughter buy such a crappy car. an escort? come one man. dad is supposed to prevent this kind of thing. let me guess.....she married a hip hop producer? :p
She can trade it in a buy any car she wishes. I bought the first one and this one, she's on her own from here. (2 free cars by your 18th birthday is more than I got)
 
danny.guitar said:
Actually my mix isn't metal (I don't play metal ;)). It's an acoustic instrumental... guitars, synths, and a piano.

I double-tracked the rhythm guitars, panned one left (-80), the other right (+80) for a more full sound.
D'oh, your avatar is staring me in the face and I didn't notice it the acoustic. Just goes to show how bias can blind someone; I'm suo used to the majority of headbnagers here, that I made a bad assumption.

Well, that's OK, as I don't do metal much either. I am, however very familiar with multiple rhythm (and lead) acoustics, having worked on a lot of recordings with those elements in there. The same rules still apply, getting your two rhythm tracks to compliment each other yet not be sonicly identical adds much more interest to the sound (in both stereo and mono) than if they sounded exactly the same.

I can't check your recording at the moment as, for technical reasons, I cannot reliably stream from where I'm at (maybe if you could add a download option to your Soundclick page?) But in general, different miking of the two, one brighter and the other one fuller, or a little differential EQ if the miking is dodgey, in order to "lift and seperate" the two parts sonically just a bit can go a long way.

Maybe that's not even a problem with your recording; I just can't tell right now because I'm stream-challenged :( .

G.
 
I uploaded the MP3.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=B26F48187E662344

Thanks for taking the time to listen and help out. :)

I changed the mic position just barely when recording the 2nd rhythm track. I kept it about the same distance from the guitar, but pointed it to where the neck joins the body as opposed to the 7th-9th fret.

I added a (very) slight reverb to both tracks, but they both use the same plugin and settings.
 
I think there should be a new forum: Glen's Wisdom. And people just ask him questions, and he answers, and then once every few months all the info on one topic can be collected and turned into a tutorial.
 
Did a mix last night in mono, very cool.

Each project I mix, I try and learn something new. Last time around, it was "EQ in context of the mix." Meaning that I would bring up a channel, solo it, do some broad changes (cuts or boosts), surgical cuts ONLY if it really needed it, then bring up the track with the mix and find out really what needed to be done. Then go back and forth until it sits well.

Now I'm finding that doing this in mono is a REAL challenge. I can't let the guitars eat up massive amounts of midrange anymore because they just stomp on each other and all over the drums. I can't say that I really got a handle on the mono mix last night, but I know tonight that I'll be trying to carve out lots of space for all the instruments to sit well together.

I'm hoping that when I pan everything back out, it will have a very clear sound and I might roll back some of those cuts a bit to fatten everything up.

Oh, and will all of this EQ work, I'm finding compression to be almost obsolete on just about all the tracks. Just need some to smooth out the vocals, fatten up the bass, and I might toss one on the drum buss for just a bit of fattening, although I don't really have any cool compressors in my arsenal. Going to do a demo-spree tonight...looking forward to the Sonalksis. Vintage Warmer is kinda cool but I almost always end up wanting something else.

Theoretically, this is the direction I need to go in to not need to kill the mix while "mastering" :D
 
zacanger said:
I think there should be a new forum: Glen's Wisdom.
Yikes, that'd have to be the world's shortest forum :eek: . Probably be more material with a forum lableled "Glen's Typos".

That said, keep your eyes and ears open over the next couple of months for a new website. It won't really be what you descibe, but it will have info you'll be interested in. Plus...well, I can only hint for now...get your best mixes ready... ;)

G.
 
Yareek said:
Now I'm finding that doing this in mono is a REAL challenge. I can't let the guitars eat up massive amounts of midrange anymore because they just stomp on each other and all over the drums. I can't say that I really got a handle on the mono mix last night, but I know tonight that I'll be trying to carve out lots of space for all the instruments to sit well together.

That was my experience, too. It's really hard to make everything sit well and have it's own space without panning. However, if you do it, you will be rewarded with a much cleaner mix.
 
yes always. Especially during tracking. If I'm micing a whole band tracking live I always do a rough and check in mono for phasing problems. Invaluable.
 
I make a point to do so while setting mics, throughout the tracking process and durring mixing. I check phase using Polarity Inversion as well as mono on my console. And durring intense mixes I'll even bring out the Old M-Audio DX4 using one speaker and a crappy set of Jensen home stereo speakers.
 
centre information in a mono mix

Not sure if this has already been said.

When a stereo mix is summed to mono, the panned centre information tends to stand out a bit more against the panned left and right info when it was in stereo. Or put another way, the panned left or right info drops back a few db in our perception. The further panned hard left or right, the more it drops back subjectively.

The ear/brain is more tolerant of inadvertent phase discrepancies in a stereo mix than is the mono summing test itself.

Sure, if we can be sure the mix will always be played in stereo it's not critical to check it in mono. In the days when vinyl albums were released concurrently in stereo and mono versions it was much more important to check for mono compatibility.

Not long ago I was involved in a debate on the "analog only" site. Tom Scholz was cited approvingly as slamming the stereo phase inaccuracies of CD audio itself.
Scholz implied he could hear obvious inaccuracies just listening in stereo to a CD.

Well I did my own test, more rigorous than stereo listening. I recorded exactly the same white noise on both stereo tracks at 44.1. Then I inverted phase on the left track, summed to mono and listened. Essentially the two signals cancelled each other out, suggesting no significantly audible phase discrepancies that you would hear in stereo.

In the days of analog tape, there could be phase inaccuracies between left and right channels, at least at high freq's. Tape head misalignment was the usual culprit. Listen to the 1969 CSN&Y Deja Vu album. A brilliant production at that time, and wonderful music IMHO, but sum the CD to mono and there are swishy phase cancellations and comb filter effects, more on some tracks than others, that would rank with today's low grade mp3 files and cheap noise filtering software.
I believe CSN&Y spent many, many hours on what must have been a quite complex production and maybe with all that analog multitracking and dubbing the phase errors crept in.

But does it matter that much? Perhaps not, if you're listening in stereo, which these days we normally would be. And that's how it was intended to be heard.

Tim G
 
Tim Gillett said:
Not sure if this has already been said.
When a stereo mix is summed to mono, the panned centre information tends to................
Tim Gillett said:
Hi Tim G,...I felt that your response was very clear and concise. I enjoyed the read.
So why would you have such neg rep, generally?...I don't understand that.
Anyways, probably doesn't really worry you?.....cool. :)

Regards, SuperSpit.
 
Yes most people nowadays listen to things in stereo and we are more "tolerant" of phase discrepencies in the stereo field but we still have instances where people listen to things in mono and instances where people are listening to things in stereo but the stereo "situation" resembles more of a mono "situation" Let me clairfy: currently I'm at home enjoying a nice mint julep and typing on my laptop. Although my laptop has a stereo set of speakers they are so close together (about 2" apart) it almost resembles a mono listening situation. I popped on a mix I did years ago that had massive phase discrepencies. I was very rushed during a tracking and I didn't check for phase problems at all. I had tons of room mics up with one mic about 100' away in another room. The whole band was tracked live. So yeah I'm an idiot but anyhow the mix sounds fine in stereo. However if it is summed to mono the bass almost completely dissapears, nearly 100% cancellation occurs! Also the guitar part drops quite a bit in volume. When I play the sucker over the laptop I hear the same problems, although not quite as extreme. I guess lots of people listen to music on laptops? Also I have a clock radio that wakes me up in the morning that is mono (one speaker) and I have it tuned to a jazz radio station. I also have an old Telefunken radio in my kitchen to that I listen to while I make mint juleps and bake pot brownies. It's in mono. I see things like this in peoples homes all the time. I recently saw someone with a home stereo system that had one extra speaker extended to the kitchen which is a mono listening situation. Quite a few TV's are in mono (or the speakers are so close together that it somewhat approximates a mono situation). I've seen speakers set up weirdly in people homes: for example i was in a home that had a large living room with the speakers set very far apart. Of course if you stood in the middle of the room you'd get a stereo situation but the dude would often sit on the couch where one speaker was directly in front of his head. He's hearing 90% of the sound from this speaker alone, nearly mono! You never know so you might as well check.
 
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scrubs said:
I've tried mixing in mono a couple of times. That is, don't pan anything until the very last step. Set all your levels, EQ, effects, etc. Get it sounding as good as you can in mono first, then pan stuff where you want it. Worked great.

Well I'm remixing my song following this advice, and it's helping out a lot.

Getting EQ right in mono makes mixing in stereo so much easier. Only thing I had to change was some of the levels and everything sounds much clearer and the instruments fit much better in the mix. I can hear everything, including the bass, even at low volumes.

I think I'll do my mixing like this from now on.

Thanks again for all the great advice. :cool:
 
zacanger said:
I think there should be a new forum: Glen's Wisdom. And people just ask him questions, and he answers ...


I thought that's pretty much what this forum already was. :D

Homerecording.com, AKA SS Glen's Infinite Wisdom; and why you all can only dream of being as smart as me.

.
 
chessrock said:
I thought that's pretty much what this forum already was. :D

Homerecording.com, AKA SS Glen's Infinite Wisdom; and why you all can only dream of being as smart as me.

.


Something like that, yeah.

SouthSIDE Glen said:
Yikes, that'd have to be the world's shortest forum :eek: . Probably be more material with a forum lableled "Glen's Typos".

That said, keep your eyes and ears open over the next couple of months for a new website. It won't really be what you descibe, but it will have info you'll be interested in. Plus...well, I can only hint for now...get your best mixes ready... ;)

G.

O.O. Well then, I'll be watching for it.
 
Hey Glen, I've read a lot about your reference to "tongue and groove" EQ'ing in a mix. And that's actually what I've been kind of teaching myself to do the last few months.

What kind of EQ do you like for this method of EQ'ing? A really flat EQ with a graphic display or one that you just turn the knobs until it sounds right?

Also, with the concept of Fix EQ -> Compression -> Tweak EQ, would you consider the "groove" to be part of the "Fix EQ" (e.g. cutting out the mids in a kick drum) or would it be part of the "Tweak EQ"? In other words, do you shape it going into the compressor or after the compressor?

In my latest mix, I tried running a Waves Ren EQ to cut out the very low end and very high end and carve out unwanted mids. Not a lot, but a little bit. Then I ran into Waves Ren Comp to compress as needed and finally into a demo of the URS Fulltec (colored EQ) which I used to boost up the low mids and high end, or exaggerate the tongue-and-groove. Seemed to work well, but I'm still not aggressive enough in my cuts and boosts for a busy modern rock mix.

Sorry for the long post but this has been a really helpful thread and I'm hoping to squeeze out a little more info :D
 
Yareek said:
What kind of EQ do you like for this method of EQ'ing? A really flat EQ with a graphic display or one that you just turn the knobs until it sounds right?
Well, technically all EQs are ones where you just turn the knobs until they sound right ;) :) .

If you're asking whether to use a graphic or a parametric EQ, the short answer is "it depends" :rolleyes: . I personally use parametric EQs far more often than graphic EQs; in general - there are always exceptions - I tend to use paramteric EQing for major "sculpting" of the sound, and graphic EQing for "fine sanding and gentle shaping" of the resulting sound. YMMV.

As such, I tend to use parametric for target - or narrow-Q - tounge-and-grooving and for tounge-and-groove nothces and bumps that are high in gain, but for more gentle fitting - perhapes more "bump-and-shallow" than "tongue-and-groove", I might be more inclined to use a graphic.

But then you also throw in the "sound" or coloration that you might want and that could change it all. It depends on how much, if any, coloration you want to intentionally tint the signal with.

Yareek said:
Also, with the concept of Fix EQ -> Compression -> Tweak EQ, would you consider the "groove" to be part of the "Fix EQ" (e.g. cutting out the mids in a kick drum) or would it be part of the "Tweak EQ"? In other words, do you shape it going into the compressor or after the compressor?
Well, it really depends upon the situation. But probably more often than not (again, in general, with exceptions) I'd say T&G EQ is mostly a seperate issue from the compression path EQ, and comes mostly afterwards.

The idea of pre-compression "FixEQ" is to get rid of rough spots in the track response that would otherwise be emphasized in an undesired way once the signal is compressed. That is, it's to shape the pre-compression sound in such a way so that the compression itself does not emphasize unwanted artifacts. In much the same way that a quarterback in American football has to lead the receiver when he passes the ball so that by the time the ball gets downfield the ball and the receiver are in the same place, "FixEQ" is setting the pre-compressed sound to "lead" the compressor so that when the signal comes out the ass-end of the compressor, it is more or less where we want it.

"TweakEQ", OTOH, is fine tuning or fine sanding the resulting sound to just where we want it after it's compressed. To continue the analogy, this is kind of like the receiver adjusting his pattern to get under the thrown ball. Because it's somewhere after the compression is done where one would ideally start mixing the track with other tracks, it's somewhere at that point where "tongue-and-groove EQing" (also called "differential EQing") would begin to take place.

Yareek said:
In my latest mix, I tried running a Waves Ren EQ to cut out the very low end and very high end and carve out unwanted mids. Not a lot, but a little bit. Then I ran into Waves Ren Comp to compress as needed and finally into a demo of the URS Fulltec (colored EQ) which I used to boost up the low mids and high end, or exaggerate the tongue-and-groove. Seemed to work well, but I'm still not aggressive enough in my cuts and boosts for a busy modern rock mix.
All I can say is keep working at it. The sizes of the boosts and cuts (tongues and grooves) don't necessarily have to be all that large when thay are handled in pairs. Remember a 3dB cut/groove at frequency x on Track A combined with a 3dB boost/tongue at the same frequency on Track comes out to a full 6dB differential at that frequency as compared to the original mix. This is often more natural and transparent sounding - and often even more effective - than a single 6dB groove/cut or tongue/boost on one track only.

G.
 
Thanks for the insight Glen!

I was referring to EQ's with a graph, so I misspoke. It's kind of a crutch, but I'm still learning how EQ bands interact so it might have to be a necessity.

I'll keep plugging away. Got to figure out the "tongue-and-groove" thing a little better, at least where to put them instead of everything following the same pattern.
 
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