Hugo H
New member
osus said:
It's nice to see that someone else suspects the same.
BTW, of course lyrics matter. It's not a song without words just like it's not a song without music. And better songs have better of everything. Lyrics included.
It's nice to see that someone else suspects the same.
BTW, of course lyrics matter. It's not a song without words just like it's not a song without music. And better songs have better of everything. Lyrics included.
C
chazba
terminally hip
I think that , in this case they don't matter. It reads as though they were written by a computer.
chazba
chazba
tanlith
King of the Wicker People
Fasmous Beagle? Jack Russel?
OK I can't resist the temptation....
WHO LET THE DOGS OUT??
OK I can't resist the temptation....
WHO LET THE DOGS OUT??
Dogman
Unkle Ticklefingers
Wasn't me....tanlith said:Fasmous Beagle? Jack Russel?
OK I can't resist the temptation....
WHO LET THE DOGS OUT??
S
smeghead
New member
To me the lryics are the whole heart of the song. My youth was spent listening to The Jam and if you listen to down in the tubestation at midnight you will see the lyrics mean everything. Most of The jam's stuff off of the setting sons album is brilliant and it's the lyrical content that makes it.
If you have not listened to The Jam I suggest you listen to the albums, All Mod Cons, Setting Sons and Sound Affects . It could open up a whole new window for you !!
If you have not listened to The Jam I suggest you listen to the albums, All Mod Cons, Setting Sons and Sound Affects . It could open up a whole new window for you !!
D
Dearg
New member
Jack Russell said:Lots of good observations on this thread. Here is another thing along the same lines, if you all would be patient and indulge me.
Another tune I'm writing began as a bass/drums/guitar piece with no words or melody. I played it for my wife and she loved it. She said it was beautiful and that I should not fuck it up when I write the words and sing it. So, the pressure is on.
I didn't know what to write about. However, my wife suggested that the tune has so much emotion that I should write about our dog, which we lost last year. This was an emotionally devastating loss for both of us. The dog was our baby, and we still miss him terribly.
So, that is what I am doing. I've taken this story of deep loss of a pet and, as I work on the music, I find myself breaking down in tears. It is a very strong emotion.
But, to the point: I want to write in plain language this feeling of loss, but I must be abstract. I can't write a narrative about taking a dog to the vet to be put to sleep, because that would be absurd and stiff. My goal is to write it in such a way that the listening can identify with the feeling itself, from the music first, and then from the abstract hints in the words, so they can empathize with their own loss of...a pet, a friend, a lover... If I can do this, I'll have success. But it is very hard.
__________
P.S.: Ironically, I must leave now to go to a friend's funeral. Later....
Let me know when you have finished I would like to hear/read it.
e unum pluribus
New member
"imagery is an acceptable substitute for substanance"
-E Unum Pluribus
just kidding lol
but its true...
-E Unum Pluribus
just kidding lol
but its true...
E
Emusic
New member
I have been a long time fan of lyrics that are so wide and free that the meaning of them might mean a lot of different thing to people who hear/read them.
But I feel this text had too few anchorpoints to force it in some kind of direction. To tell the listener what you're message is about.
It's like talking. If your words ain't about nothing at all, it might be better to not say them.
But saying something swept in an abstract way of saying it, can be most beautiful.
As can saying something overly simplistic be.
Now did THAT make sense?
But I feel this text had too few anchorpoints to force it in some kind of direction. To tell the listener what you're message is about.
It's like talking. If your words ain't about nothing at all, it might be better to not say them.
But saying something swept in an abstract way of saying it, can be most beautiful.
As can saying something overly simplistic be.
Now did THAT make sense?
G
glynb
Balladeer
if you go back in time to the earliest songs, ballads sung by wandering minstrels, passed on by memory and imitation, they usually told a story. The whole purpose of the song was to tell the story in an entertaining way.
Some have seemed to suggest that you can either write pure meaningless imagery, or something deep and meaningful, but some lyrics just tell a simple story, eg Dylan's 'Hurricane' about the black boxer who was apparently framed for a murder. Lyrics like that hark back to the old ballad tradition.
Some examples of 'imagery' songs which work well are lennon's Come Together and I am The Walrus. They are not without meaning, but the meaning is surreal 'Sitting on a cornflake, Waiting for the van to come' - you can imagine that in your head.
Do lyrics 'matter' - most certainly, otherwise people wouldn't spend time over them and just sing 'La la la' to every song!
Do meanings in lyrics matter? - that's the question people have been addressing in this thread.
Some have seemed to suggest that you can either write pure meaningless imagery, or something deep and meaningful, but some lyrics just tell a simple story, eg Dylan's 'Hurricane' about the black boxer who was apparently framed for a murder. Lyrics like that hark back to the old ballad tradition.
Some examples of 'imagery' songs which work well are lennon's Come Together and I am The Walrus. They are not without meaning, but the meaning is surreal 'Sitting on a cornflake, Waiting for the van to come' - you can imagine that in your head.
Do lyrics 'matter' - most certainly, otherwise people wouldn't spend time over them and just sing 'La la la' to every song!
Do meanings in lyrics matter? - that's the question people have been addressing in this thread.
Dr.Bootleg
New member
Lyrics do matter to me very much. I prefer more abstract lyrics myself and tend to write that way. I want my songs to be open to different meanings and different interpretations. As HapiCmpur said:
"Once you're pretty sure you know what a song's "about," it becomes a lot less interesting to listen to. Similarly, lyrics that are too obvious and direct don't keep you coming back for more. Obscure lyrics, on the other hand -- especially those that appear to allude to other subjects -- will tend to have much greater staying power."
I totally agree with that. Many of my favorite songs have lyrics like this. There's songs that I've heard that I got something out of but then I'll hear them again five years later and get a totally different meaning from them. We are constantly changing and our perceptions are constantly changing as well.
A good song or record can stand those changes and you end up growing to love it more than ever.
However of course I don't think all lyrics should be obtuse and abstract. That would be boring as hell. I love 80s glam rock like Poison and Ratt because the songs are great. The lyrics are simple and often very cliche but they FIT the music and are fun to sing along to. So ultimately I think it depends on the song.
I also agree that writer's should never explain their intended meaning (if one even exists). That completely ruins it for me. People will always make their own conclusions and find their own meanings and it should be that way.
Like the late Layne Staley from Alice in Chains said: "Our songs, when you listen to our music...whatever you think that song's about...THAT'S what it's about!"
And as Jack Russel said:
"Another tune I'm writing began as a bass/drums/guitar piece with no words or melody. I played it for my wife and she loved it. She said it was beautiful and that I should not fuck it up when I write the words and sing it. So, the pressure is on."
Man, I know how that is. My girlfriend is always trying to get me to change my lyrics or write them differently. She said I'm too abstract so I started writing more tangible stuff. Then when I showed her the tangilbe stuff she said it's too tame. She's just trying to push me as a writer but...I don't show her things anymore either until they are finished. Everyone has their own tastes. Bottom line.
"Once you're pretty sure you know what a song's "about," it becomes a lot less interesting to listen to. Similarly, lyrics that are too obvious and direct don't keep you coming back for more. Obscure lyrics, on the other hand -- especially those that appear to allude to other subjects -- will tend to have much greater staying power."
I totally agree with that. Many of my favorite songs have lyrics like this. There's songs that I've heard that I got something out of but then I'll hear them again five years later and get a totally different meaning from them. We are constantly changing and our perceptions are constantly changing as well.
A good song or record can stand those changes and you end up growing to love it more than ever.
However of course I don't think all lyrics should be obtuse and abstract. That would be boring as hell. I love 80s glam rock like Poison and Ratt because the songs are great. The lyrics are simple and often very cliche but they FIT the music and are fun to sing along to. So ultimately I think it depends on the song.
I also agree that writer's should never explain their intended meaning (if one even exists). That completely ruins it for me. People will always make their own conclusions and find their own meanings and it should be that way.
Like the late Layne Staley from Alice in Chains said: "Our songs, when you listen to our music...whatever you think that song's about...THAT'S what it's about!"
And as Jack Russel said:
"Another tune I'm writing began as a bass/drums/guitar piece with no words or melody. I played it for my wife and she loved it. She said it was beautiful and that I should not fuck it up when I write the words and sing it. So, the pressure is on."
Man, I know how that is. My girlfriend is always trying to get me to change my lyrics or write them differently. She said I'm too abstract so I started writing more tangible stuff. Then when I showed her the tangilbe stuff she said it's too tame.
She's just trying to push me as a writer but...I don't show her things anymore either until they are finished. Everyone has their own tastes. Bottom line.
E
Elton Bear
Unregistered Abuser
Back-tracking a little, Bob Dylan is a horrendous example of somebody who writes lyrics that don't mean anything, he once had an argument with John Lennon over this very issue; Dylan was saying how important his lyrics were to him, and Lennon told him that the music is where it's at.#
Now, IMHO, lyrics mean next to nothing when writing songs, unless you're brilliant at writing lyrics. Take 'Keasbey Nights' by Catch 22 - "When they come for me, I'll be sitting at my desk, with a gun in my hand, wearing a bullet-proof vest, singing 'My my my how the time goes by, when you know you're gonna die by the end of the night'": I think those lyrics are great, others may not.
The way I see it, if you write amazing lyrics - they're important. If you write amazing music - the lyrics don't matter.
Asking 'Are lyrics important?' is kinda like asking 'What's better, a trumpet or a trombone?' - It all depends on the song-writer and on the song.
Now, IMHO, lyrics mean next to nothing when writing songs, unless you're brilliant at writing lyrics. Take 'Keasbey Nights' by Catch 22 - "When they come for me, I'll be sitting at my desk, with a gun in my hand, wearing a bullet-proof vest, singing 'My my my how the time goes by, when you know you're gonna die by the end of the night'": I think those lyrics are great, others may not.
The way I see it, if you write amazing lyrics - they're important. If you write amazing music - the lyrics don't matter.
Asking 'Are lyrics important?' is kinda like asking 'What's better, a trumpet or a trombone?' - It all depends on the song-writer and on the song.
C
chazba
terminally hip
e unum pluribus said:
That's like saying " Spice is an acceptable substitute for food"
chazba
Winter
New member
Nahhh...
Beck, RHCP, Nirvana, sometimes Tori Amos....questionable what these folks talk/talked about sometimes...but I love their music. I also like chants and various world music in languages I don't understand. Yet I like hearing it every now and then. I personally like to make lyrics a priority in my stuff, but it isn't mandatory if you don't feel the need.
Beck, RHCP, Nirvana, sometimes Tori Amos....questionable what these folks talk/talked about sometimes...but I love their music. I also like chants and various world music in languages I don't understand. Yet I like hearing it every now and then. I personally like to make lyrics a priority in my stuff, but it isn't mandatory if you don't feel the need.
Jack Russell
I smell home cookin!
This was a good thread. If I do say so myself...and I do say so myself. 
Jagular
Active member
It really depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to feed your self from money you make as a songwriter you will be very skinny with lyrics like that 
....
If you are an incredibly talented artist who writes his own songs and your music is killer. You might not be so skinny
From a Nashville perspective (about the only place up and coming non-artist songwriters still have a slight prayer at making a living from it) the lyric is king. Rock music and some other genres have less stringent standards, but if you ain't the artist or producer or doin' the artist or producer or been in the business for 50 years with a string of hits good luck.
I'm being a little fececious to make my point.
I personally don't care for abstract lyrics. We have a term for that here in Nashville. It's called shoe gazer music. On open mic nights you will hear some writers doing this artistic abstract stuff and they generally are singing into the mic without an ounce of eye contact with the audience hence the monicker. Mostly that type of music bores the crap out of the crowd.
I do realize that there are folks who have much different taste than I. Who may eat this kind of lyric up. Hey that's cool. I don't want to discourage anyone from writing artistic abstract lyrics if that is what they want to do. We all need our forms of artistic expression. If you are an incredible artist and can get the idea across with the music and it resonates with enough people go for it!! All popluar music is really a niche market anyway. If you ask a representative sampling of people about any song the majority are not going to like it. You only need to find the niche.
Plus, it is perfectly ok to write songs for your own artistic release and pleasure. Nothing wrong with that either.
So like I said. The answer to your question is a question. What are you trying to accomplish?
....If you are an incredibly talented artist who writes his own songs and your music is killer. You might not be so skinny
From a Nashville perspective (about the only place up and coming non-artist songwriters still have a slight prayer at making a living from it) the lyric is king. Rock music and some other genres have less stringent standards, but if you ain't the artist or producer or doin' the artist or producer or been in the business for 50 years with a string of hits good luck
. I'm being a little fececious to make my point.
I personally don't care for abstract lyrics. We have a term for that here in Nashville. It's called shoe gazer music. On open mic nights you will hear some writers doing this artistic abstract stuff and they generally are singing into the mic without an ounce of eye contact with the audience hence the monicker
. Mostly that type of music bores the crap out of the crowd.I do realize that there are folks who have much different taste than I. Who may eat this kind of lyric up. Hey that's cool. I don't want to discourage anyone from writing artistic abstract lyrics if that is what they want to do. We all need our forms of artistic expression. If you are an incredible artist and can get the idea across with the music and it resonates with enough people go for it!! All popluar music is really a niche market anyway. If you ask a representative sampling of people about any song the majority are not going to like it. You only need to find the niche.
Plus, it is perfectly ok to write songs for your own artistic release and pleasure. Nothing wrong with that either.
So like I said. The answer to your question is a question. What are you trying to accomplish?
C
cello_pudding
Well-known member
man...i would say i listen to lyrics almost more than anything.
i mean...if you're going to write a song...write a song. song being music with lyrics. don't just bs some lyrics to music you've worked on just to get some chicks/money/fame.
i mean...if you're going to write a song...write a song. song being music with lyrics. don't just bs some lyrics to music you've worked on just to get some chicks/money/fame.
G
Gnut
New member
IMHO, it depends on you personally and who your audience is. Every genre focuses on a different aspect of the music. I don't think it makes one way superior to the others. I personally prefer powerful lyrics AND powerful music together. One supports the other. However, that's my personal preference. I don't think it is better or worse than any other focus.
I don't feel there is a general rule one way or the other. It just depends on the audience and your style of music.
I don't feel there is a general rule one way or the other. It just depends on the audience and your style of music.
demensia
www.lukemacneil.com
Lots of hit songs have crap lyrics.
No hit songs have crap music.
No hit songs have crap music.
K
KaveKong
Banned
The best songs have both.
There are lots of hits without good words or music. A musician isn't the proper judge of what are good lyrics or what makes good music.
Listeners are the judge.
I read in the book Songwriter's Market some amazing advice once from a music industry executive:
"The listener should be able to hum the tune after one or two listens."
That makes sense.
But music is so subjective. I mean, if you could make an album that only three percent of the population wants to buy and you'd be rich. That's nine million album sales in the USA alone. Think about that. 99% of the country can say, "I don't want that album" and you'd still have 3 million sales.
But back to the subject.
I think lyrics matter because I'm very satisfied with the music I make, but I can't write lyrics or vocal melodies. So I have tons of instrumentals and riffs that could be great songs, but they are unfinished because I hate my lyrics and vocal melodies.
I need to colaborate, but I don't get along well with people in creative settings.
Beer and football is another matter.
There are lots of hits without good words or music. A musician isn't the proper judge of what are good lyrics or what makes good music.
Listeners are the judge.
I read in the book Songwriter's Market some amazing advice once from a music industry executive:
"The listener should be able to hum the tune after one or two listens."
That makes sense.
But music is so subjective. I mean, if you could make an album that only three percent of the population wants to buy and you'd be rich. That's nine million album sales in the USA alone. Think about that. 99% of the country can say, "I don't want that album" and you'd still have 3 million sales.
But back to the subject.
I think lyrics matter because I'm very satisfied with the music I make, but I can't write lyrics or vocal melodies. So I have tons of instrumentals and riffs that could be great songs, but they are unfinished because I hate my lyrics and vocal melodies.
I need to colaborate, but I don't get along well with people in creative settings.
Beer and football is another matter.
Jack Russell
I smell home cookin!
demensia said:
That nails it on the head.