do i own my pro tools session?

  • Thread starter Thread starter vineband
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vineband said:
Are there templates for producer and/or songwriter agreements out there?
Mike,

You don't even necessarily have to get as formal as a long-winded contract or agreement (though that could be nice). Even something in the form of a quote/work order that itemizes the work to be done and the deliverables, along with the quoted cost(s). Maybe throw a printed line or two re terms of service at the bottom if you feel the need. Just like almost any other service-centric business. A receipt from Jiffy Lube is a perfect example.

A great way to implement it and get a client signature is to get a downpayment from the client (itself a good idea for several reasons), and print up the line-item order showing the downpayment and the estimated balance. Have the client sign at the bottom and then give them their copy as the receipt for the downpayment.

You now have a signed document itemizing the work to be done, exactly what deliverables are being purchased (does it include the tracking tapes, the project files, etc or is it just the premaster CD?), what the agreed upon estimate, exact cost, or billing rate is (as the case may be), and so on. This work order/receipt will act as a legal contract in any court of law. More importantly, it'll be a great method for setting expectations and making sure you and the client are on the same page as to what everybody is actually getting from the get-go. Nothing more is really needed.

G.
 
"I have found DVD's to be the most unreliable method I have used for archiving. I have tried to pull stuff back just a month later and has properly stored disks produce MAJOR errors." - FordVan

ForVan. I totally agree. I have had times that DVD's will not load. Not often but it does happen. I have read that the "pros" feel it is the best medium for long term storage but I dont know. The "pros" dont seem to like hard drives. They feel there are problems with them sitting for a few years, and they may be right. So how do you store/backup projects? I have begun to use CD's if the song will fit so if the disc goes south I have only lost 1 song, unlike in the past when I have 3 or 4 songs on 1 DVD and the entire disc shits the bed.
__________________
 
instead of using unreliable DVD's and/or requiring clients to dish out cash for a backup hard drive, i have one word for you guys:

flashdrive

cheap, easy, reliable, and damn near indestructable from what i understand
 
vineband said:
I am on the tail end of producing a mix for a client. This is the first client that has ever asked me for the pro tools sessions and all audio data etc in addition to her masters (20+gigs). I have put 200 hours into the project and don't want to so quickly give away all my work. Hypothetically some producer down the road could open my sessions up, re track a vocal and take all the credit and future money that my edit/mix generates?

I will certainly release the master, but should i release the data?

I am now going to sign producer agreements with future clients but it seems like the pro tools session data ownership would not be in most contracts. Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Where any contracts signed before this? Did you take the time to write one up?

it's all in the contract man. Very important before any session takes place. Your bussiness can come up with whatever contract it wants. It's your protection in case any legal issues flare up (and they do all the time). However, don't assume a client dosn't have the instinct to feel uneasy about it, because they usually do. So you have to come up with something that gives them and you peace of mind.

People pay rediculous money for a lawyer to come up with friendly and confusing ways of saying, "We own the masters (that includes session materials, dat taps, files, etc) until you pay up".

Traditionally, if you're a studio who's job it is to create a sonic piece for an artist who is either it's own producer and/or with a producer, you don't own the masters. You only own them until the service has been paid in full.

You simply provide a service at the discretion of the producer and the client he represents.

Defined clearly, a client is the one handing you the money. A client can be the artist themselves, the producer for the client and/or the record label who puts both the producer and artist in your studio. The client can state how he would like the material to be handled and who you hand it to.

As studio/or freelance engineer you're not responsible for determining the outcome of your clients material, other than for the reasons stated. As a producer, however, you could be. Still, you can't (and shouldn't be able to) do anything without that contract signed.

The studio can only hold the material until the client has fufilled his end of the deal. You can't sell it, manipulate it, release it or otherwise shed light on its exsistence if the client dosn't choose to. You simply hold it until the client has met your terms for payment.

The act of holding masters for creative and monitary concerns (like in this case) is usually something you see more with a producer or a record label, not an engineer or studio.

You do have the right to include a clause that may state things like your intention to hold a backup copy to benefit the client just in case. And also terms on how he can aquire that backup. However, you have to keep your claims within logical reasoning and in benefit to both your bussiness and the client.

If you put terms the client dosn't agree with, they don't have to sign it. They can simply choose to go with someone that will give them more reasonable terms.

For example, a producer/studio owner I worked for a long time ago would make it *very* clear to his clients that he would hold a copy of the masters and session files in case the client needed another copy in the future. It was an additional fee for every copy past the first master. The clients could live with that.

In this case, unless otherwise stated, your client technically owns the masters and can request them whenever she would like; provided she has paid for them per your agreement.

However, the problem you're having here is that it dosn't seem that you came up with a contract to cover your bases completely. It feels like this was based on a either a losely assembled contract or word of mouth.

You don't want to run the risk of looking bad to your client, because of course that lasting impression could hurt future bussiness.

Lord knows I've seen plenty of that, too.
 
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Try not to get too attatched to projects. It is important that you care and are entusiastic to the client about their music, but remember that you are "work for hire".

I require that a client purchases or brings a clean hard drive. I store all of the session data to that, while backing up on my own drive. I make the client responsible for their own data, because in reality it really is theirs and not my problem. I wipe my backup drive every month, so if the client deletes it off of their drive it is their own problem. I have no problem with parting with my SSL disks or outboard settings to them if they really want them. 90% of them don't want them, and just want the Pro Tools session with either stems or processed tracks.
 
LeeRosario said:
Where any contracts signed before this? Did you take the time to write one up?

it's all in the contract man. Very important before any session takes place. Your bussiness can come up with whatever contract it wants. It's your protection in case any legal issues flare up (and they do all the time). However, don't assume a client dosn't have the instinct to feel uneasy about it, because they usually do. So you have to come up with something that gives them and you peace of mind.


I think this is the wisest thing that's been said here so far. Anything that is not in the contract will potentially be subject to debate in court. Statements about what is 'usually done' by studios may prove to be moot.
 
flashdrive?

sessions i back up are usually a minimum of 4gigs. (averageing about 8, going up and beyond 12 sometimes)
not what i call an economical solution, not yet at least.
 
giraffe said:
flashdrive?

sessions i back up are usually a minimum of 4gigs. (averageing about 8, going up and beyond 12 sometimes)
not what i call an economical solution, not yet at least.
same with me. I agree!Cant get anything on 1 or 2 gig flashdrive,shit CD's are hard enough but I like them as I can make copies and give client one,keep one.
 
TuoKaerf said:
Try not to get too attached to projects. It is important that you care and are enthusiastic to the client about their music, but remember that you are "work for hire".

Bingo, right on the money.

Remember that the client has *paid you* for the work that you've done for them. Would you have done that work if they had not brought you the tracks and hired you? No.

It's work for hire, the client owns it all.

It's typical in film scoring contracts for there to be a clause that says something to the effect that the film company owns all the materials that were generated in the creating of the score. So to carry that over to your situation, the client owns all the materials that were generated in the creation of those mixes, which includes the sessions files.

If they decide to take it to another engineer later, that's really not any of your business. It's their money and their tracks. They've paid you for your work and they can do whatever the heck they want to with it after they walk out of your studio.

Also, why would you even want to keep that stuff around? It takes up drive and storage space, even if just a few discs on a shelf. Man, I'm always glad to clear a project off the hard drives.

Further, there's nothing you can do with those files, as all the materials on them are copyrighted and not owned by you. All you can do is obstruct the client's desire to have all their files in one place. If I worked with an engineer that pulled that with me, I'd have a real problem with it and the very least of the unpleasantness would be that I'd never hire that particular engineer again.

The downside of the bad will generated seems not worth the simple concept of giving the client the work they paid for.
 
jmorris said:
"I have found DVD's to be the most unreliable method I have used for archiving. I have tried to pull stuff back just a month later and has properly stored disks produce MAJOR errors." - FordVan

ForVan. I totally agree. I have had times that DVD's will not load. Not often but it does happen. I have read that the "pros" feel it is the best medium for long term storage but I dont know. The "pros" dont seem to like hard drives. They feel there are problems with them sitting for a few years, and they may be right. So how do you store/backup projects? I have begun to use CD's if the song will fit so if the disc goes south I have only lost 1 song, unlike in the past when I have 3 or 4 songs on 1 DVD and the entire disc shits the bed.
__________________

Actually....I don't know if you consider them "pros" haha, but I heard straight from a dude at Mitsui (MAM-A) that recordable DVDs are not recommended for archival. They deteriorate much sooner than a CDR. I forget why, but I would be willing to bet it has something to do with the smaller pits. Smaller pits= it takes less deterioration to disrupt them.
Thus far, I have kept backups on harddrive, but I am getting to where I would like to save less important projects to DVD for backup/archival. What brands of DVDs are you guys using that are failing so bad; cheapies at Wally-World? Or have you had bad luck with TY's and MAMA's?
 
Reggie said:
Thus far, I have kept backups on harddrive, but I am getting to where I would like to save less important projects to DVD for backup/archival. What brands of DVDs are you guys using that are failing so bad; cheapies at Wally-World? Or have you had bad luck with TY's and MAMA's?
I have not tried DVD for archiving yet, but that's because based upon my experience on using DVDs for actual video distribution, I'm convinced that consumer computer-based DVD+/-RW technology is simply not yet ready for prime time. If you try going anything over about 50% capacity; it's just plain unrelaible.

I have tried two different highly-rated DVD burners (I'm currently on the Plextor PX-716). I have tried all the A-List brands of DVD blanks recommended by the manufacturers, tried 5 different burning software titles for all the usual suspects, spent literally hours on the phone with tech support (though talking with "Britney" in Calcutta kinda stretches the word "tech" :rolleyes: ), and worked the support forums, all in support of a couple of different DVD projects, and have come to the conclusion that for anything more than 15 or 30 minute home movies, computer-based DVD burning is just not worth the hassle or the gamble...yet. I'm sure - or at least hoping - that the technology will mature sometime soon, but for now it's just not there, IME.

G.
 
Interesting to hear you say that. I'm not sure anyone has any plans to change computer-based DVD burning in any other way than increasing speed, and perhaps compatibility with newer HD formats. So maybe manufacturers are not aware of all the troubles? I have a PX-760 that I use a lot at work-- mostly for CDs and it has been great, but I don't really do much DVD authoring. The drive I have at home that I was planning on using for backups is a cheapy Samsung, so I'm sure to have further troubles with that.

spent literally hours on the phone with tech support (though talking with "Britney" in Calcutta kinda stretches the word "tech" )
Haha, I know exactly what you mean
 
I back up to CD-R and to DVD-R to hedge my bets (a single instance is not secure enough). Hard drive backup is just short-medium term if only because all the eggs are in the same basket. From that point of view the set of CD-Rs are the most secure because if a later disk in the set fails I've still got the source WAVs on another disk.
 
SonicAlbert said:
Bingo, right on the money.

Remember that the client has *paid you* for the work that you've done for them. Would you have done that work if they had not brought you the tracks and hired you? No.

It's work for hire, the client owns it all.

It's typical in film scoring contracts for there to be a clause that says something to the effect that the film company owns all the materials that were generated in the creating of the score. So to carry that over to your situation, the client owns all the materials that were generated in the creation of those mixes, which includes the sessions files.

If they decide to take it to another engineer later, that's really not any of your business. It's their money and their tracks. They've paid you for your work and they can do whatever the heck they want to with it after they walk out of your studio.

Also, why would you even want to keep that stuff around? It takes up drive and storage space, even if just a few discs on a shelf. Man, I'm always glad to clear a project off the hard drives.

Further, there's nothing you can do with those files, as all the materials on them are copyrighted and not owned by you. All you can do is obstruct the client's desire to have all their files in one place. If I worked with an engineer that pulled that with me, I'd have a real problem with it and the very least of the unpleasantness would be that I'd never hire that particular engineer again.

The downside of the bad will generated seems not worth the simple concept of giving the client the work they paid for.


yes sirr.. i couldn't have said it better myself. i've learned to put everything in writing!!!
 
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