Do I need to bypass mixer preamp when plugging in external preamp?

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gene12586

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Hi all,

I'm singing into a dynamic microphone which is plugged into a stand-alone preamp via XLR cable, and then I'm running the preamp via XLR cable into one of the inputs of my mixer which is part of my PA system. The PA system is the Yamaha Stagepas 600i. I think I remember reading somewhere that most mixers have internal preamps and that you may need to bypass the internal preamp if you're inputting from an external preamp. I was looking at the manual for the Stagepas and see nothing about any internal preamps or having to bypass them if plugging in an external preamp. So I'm taking it I can simply just safely run the external preamp into the Stagepas and sing away without any problems. Is that right, or do I need to somehow bypass whatever internal preamp the Stagepas has?

Thanks!
 
It's often a bit unnecessary to have multiple preamps unless they're doing a specific job - like making up for a rubbish preamp or a low gain one with a low gain mic. As long as you get the gain staging right - it's OK. what kind of preamp is it? I n' think of any mixers that have disconnectable preamps.
 
On a Mackie 1604 the input is TRS. There is a defeat for the pre's. You can plug it in, until the first notch. then use your external preamp.

Stacking preamps makes for a hissy overblown kind of..
 
I’m a fan of using only one preamp at a time.
Just think of it in terms guitar pedals. You go into one overdrive pedal. Now that overdriven output goes into another overdrive. Might sound killer. (For guitar)

But in recording you wouldn’t want that, but instead you’d want a clean boasted signal. (Most times)
 
rob aylestone said:
It's often a bit unnecessary to have multiple preamps unless they're doing a specific job - like making up for a rubbish preamp or a low gain one with a low gain mic. As long as you get the gain staging right - it's OK. what kind of preamp is it? I n' think of any mixers that have disconnectable preamps.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply.
So I should clarify my issue and my gear.
My mic is a Shure SM7B and the external preamp is a Great River ME-1NV.
I've been using the Shure SM7B into the mixer (Stagepas) for practicing singing live for a while now... But I have to turn the volume on the mixer channel that I'm plugging the microphone into way up to like 70% to get the desired volume given that it's a Shure SM7B (and adding any more volume at that point causes clipping/that terrible screeching sound). I've only had the Stagepas for 6 years and have only used it for live singing practice along with the Shure SM7B. However, in that time the first two channels of the Stagepas have broken and become unusable, and so I was speculating that maybe it's because I'm having to turn up the volume so high. I still have two inputs that work.
I could use a SM58 (which is the only other mic I have) instead of the SM7B, but the SM7B just seems to give me a much better quality sound.
So, I thought that maybe I could put the Great River in between the mic and the mixer to boost the signal so I can turn down the volume on the mixer... and so that's why I asked this question...
I'm looking through the manual for the Stagepas and there is no preamp listed - though I take it there is probably one inside of it since I know most modern mixers have internal preamps. Do ya'll see anything about a preamp built into this mixer?
So you think that in for my purpose it would be ok to use the Great River? But is that safe if there is already a built in preamp in the Stagepas? I think I remember reading somewhere that you're not supposed to do this.
 
RFR said:
I’m a fan of using only one preamp at a time.
Just think of it in terms guitar pedals. You go into one overdrive pedal. Now that overdriven output goes into another overdrive. Might sound killer. (For guitar)

But in recording you wouldn’t want that, but instead you’d want a clean boasted signal. (Most times)
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply.
Please see my response to Rob above.
 
LazerBeakShiek said:
On a Mackie 1604 the input is TRS. There is a defeat for the pre's. You can plug it in, until the first notch. then use your external preamp.

Stacking preamps makes for a hissy overblown kind of..
Click to expand...
Thanks. Can you clarify what you mean by defeat? I'm not sure I understand.
 
gene12586 said:
Hi all,

I'm singing into a dynamic microphone which is plugged into a stand-alone preamp via XLR cable, and then I'm running the preamp via XLR cable into one of the inputs of my mixer which is part of my PA system. The PA system is the Yamaha Stagepas 600i. I think I remember reading somewhere that most mixers have internal preamps and that you may need to bypass the internal preamp if you're inputting from an external preamp. I was looking at the manual for the Stagepas and see nothing about any internal preamps or having to bypass them if plugging in an external preamp. So I'm taking it I can simply just safely run the external preamp into the Stagepas and sing away without any problems. Is that right, or do I need to somehow bypass whatever internal preamp the Stagepas has?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
The first thing to recognize here is the Shure SM7B is historically and notoriously a very low-output mic. I think Shure still recommends a cloud lifter when in use. I have heard folks successfully run a cloud lifter into a mic pre but it's one of the only times that pre-to-pre gain stage chain makes sense. At least to me. It also appears your Yamaha has line-level in's which would be the proper way to effectively skip the mic-pre stage. I am a fan of the SM7B and I think many underestimate it, but for live vocals, logistically, an SM57 or an SM58 makes more sense from a proper gain-level perspective. Also, on the Yamaha, I couldn't find where the input sensitivity levels are set. If it's somehow a predetermined level that makes the SM7B even more problematic. I just don't know that in a live scenario, the SM7B is not causing cascading problems.
 
Joseph Hanna said:
The first thing to recognize here is the Shure SM7B is historically and notoriously a very low-output mic. I think Shure still recommends a cloud lifter when in use. I have heard folks successfully run a cloud lifter into a mic pre but it's one of the only times that pre-to-pre gain stage chain makes sense. At least to me. It also appears your Yamaha has line-level in's which would be the proper way to effectively skip the mic-pre stage. I am a fan of the SM7B and I think many underestimate it, but for live vocals, logistically, an SM57 or an SM58 makes more sense from a proper gain-level perspective. Also, on the Yamaha, I couldn't find where the input sensitivity levels are set. If it's somehow a predetermined level that makes the SM7B even more problematic. I just don't know that in a live scenario, the SM7B is not causing cascading problems.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply.
So you think it's possible that using the SM7B as I have with the mixer might have caused the damage to the mixer I described?
The problem is that the SM7B just sounds so much better and I've gotten so used to it for my practicing... Is there a higher output mic that can get me the same quality vocals? I've tried both the SM58 and SM Beta57, and neither come close enough (though the Beta 57 comes closer of the two). I'm not even really sure how to describe what it is about the sound of the SM7B that I like so much better... I think maybe one thing is that the tone is more articulated (there's less smear)... And also for whatever reason when it comes to singing powerful operatic falsetto phrases (think Thom Yorke) it's a lot easier to sing these phrases with the SM7B (I guess this has something to do with the SM7B having a higher frequency response??).
Would a new different mixer with more power help solve the problem (i.e., could I keep using the SM7B if I had a more powerful mixer)? I'm probably getting a new one anyway soon given the damage to the Stagepas. Any thoughts on the Samson Expedition XP1000 compared to the Stagepas? (link below). It's 320 more watts and $100 less than the Stagepas (though I've learned that more watts don't necessarily equal more volume).

XP1000 | Samson

Experience power and versatility with the Samson XP1000 Portable PA System. Compact design, Bluetooth streaming, and a removable 10-channel mixer make it perfect for live performances, presentations, and more.
www.samsontech.com www.samsontech.com
 
gene12586 said:
Thanks for your reply.
So you think it's possible that using the SM7B as I have with the mixer might have caused the damage to the mixer I described?
The problem is that the SM7B just sounds so much better and I've gotten so used to it for my practicing... Is there a higher output mic that can get me the same quality vocals? I've tried both the SM58 and SM Beta57, and neither come close enough (though the Beta 57 comes closer of the two). I'm not even really sure how to describe what it is about the sound of the SM7B that I like so much better... I think maybe one thing is that the tone is more articulated (there's less smear)... And also for whatever reason when it comes to singing powerful operatic falsetto phrases (think Thom Yorke) it's a lot easier to sing these phrases with the SM7B (I guess this has something to do with the SM7B having a higher frequency response??).
Would a new different mixer with more power help solve the problem (i.e., could I keep using the SM7B if I had a more powerful mixer)? I'm probably getting a new one anyway soon given the damage to the Stagepas. Any thoughts on the Samson Expedition XP1000 compared to the Stagepas? (link below). It's 320 more watts and $100 less than the Stagepas (though I've learned that more watts don't necessarily equal more volume).

XP1000 | Samson

Experience power and versatility with the Samson XP1000 Portable PA System. Compact design, Bluetooth streaming, and a removable 10-channel mixer make it perfect for live performances, presentations, and more.
www.samsontech.com www.samsontech.com
Click to expand...
Here is a direct quote from Shure that might shed some light on things.

"Low-gain microphones typically come with high-impact problems that can frustrate engineers. Unfortunately, many dynamic microphones are among the best sounding models out there. Luckily, there’s the Cloudlifter CL-1 Mic Activator by Cloud Microphones — a perfect solution to any situation in which you need to cleanly boost a microphone signal before the preamp. Driven by the phantom power circuit on board your mixer, the Cloudlifter CL-1 adds up to +25dB of perfectly transparent gain to your signal, giving low-output mics a major boost, which makes budget microphones sound clean and professional and quality mics such as the SM7B sound absolutely fantastic!"

I don't interpret your problem as a lack of power although I don't know the Yamaha other than what I've read. As I mentioned many in the industry really love the SM7B myself included. I've had a pair for years now. It's my go-to mic for vocals in a room that might not be set up for more sensitive condensers. But it is without doubt a palpable low-low-gain mic. If you wanna use the SM7B most recommend the cloud lifter. I have two. Your board would however have to have phantom power available.

No, I don't think you risk any real threat of damage with your current setup, but it's definitely not an ideal situation for optimal sonics.
 
Joseph Hanna said:
Here is a direct quote from Shure that might shed some light on things.

"Low-gain microphones typically come with high-impact problems that can frustrate engineers. Unfortunately, many dynamic microphones are among the best sounding models out there. Luckily, there’s the Cloudlifter CL-1 Mic Activator by Cloud Microphones — a perfect solution to any situation in which you need to cleanly boost a microphone signal before the preamp. Driven by the phantom power circuit on board your mixer, the Cloudlifter CL-1 adds up to +25dB of perfectly transparent gain to your signal, giving low-output mics a major boost, which makes budget microphones sound clean and professional and quality mics such as the SM7B sound absolutely fantastic!"

I don't interpret your problem as a lack of power although I don't know the Yamaha other than what I've read. As I mentioned many in the industry really love the SM7B myself included. I've had a pair for years now. It's my go-to mic for vocals in a room that might not be set up for more sensitive condensers. But it is without doubt a palpable low-low-gain mic. If you wanna use the SM7B most recommend the cloud lifter. I have two. Your board would however have to have phantom power available.

No, I don't think you risk any real threat of damage with your current setup, but it's definitely not an ideal situation for optimal sonics.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply and suggestions. So I could just get a Cloudlifter and plug the SM7B into the Cloudlifter, and then the Cloudlifter into the mixer.

But if I were to use what I initially suggested above and go SM7B to Great River to mixer, could that cause any damage to the mixer/speakers? I understand that the Cloudlifter is better suited to what I want (because it operates at fixed gain?), but I just want to make sure that if I try the SM7B>Great River>Mixer I won't damage anything.

I should mention that when I've been practicing singing with the SM7B into the Stagepas it's always just in a normal sized apartment bedroom. Not using it for bigger spaces or gigs...
 
Hang on. Question. Your nice preamp. You turn the knob on the gain to 70% for the right level? Is this noise free? That’s a good performing preamp, so I would assume it would perform with little noise? If you are happy with this sound, just slap it into your mixer. Let’s be honest here. You can plug high output devices into mixer XLRs and turn the gain down with few problems. What concerns me is when you turn up the mixer gain it shrieks? That is not normal or right? Bad design or a fault, but not normal.

if this was me, I’d assess the nice preamp’s quality with the SM7B and my one is fine into my Tascam interface, without a cloudlifter, and I have one sitting on the top, but it’s not needed. It IS needed if I connect to a preamp I use in the video studio, this preamp just hisses above half way gain, but is fine with then cloudlifter. Your preamp also has a ¼” on the back which could go into the mixer line input? Have you tried that. You need to spend some time experimenting and assessing. You’re not going to damage anything, the worst would be shreaks or distortion if you get it wrong. Just turn the gains on both devices down, start on the preamp, make that sound good, then bring the gain up on the mixer. I’m just so confused why you’ve not done this? It’s all about your ears. If I had spent this kind of money on a preamp, I’d know it very well by now and worked out the optimum settings. The Yamaha PA will be perfectly happy with this.
 
rob aylestone said:
Hang on. Question. Your nice preamp. You turn the knob on the gain to 70% for the right level? Is this noise free? That’s a good performing preamp, so I would assume it would perform with little noise? If you are happy with this sound, just slap it into your mixer. Let’s be honest here. You can plug high output devices into mixer XLRs and turn the gain down with few problems. What concerns me is when you turn up the mixer gain it shrieks? That is not normal or right? Bad design or a fault, but not normal.

if this was me, I’d assess the nice preamp’s quality with the SM7B and my one is fine into my Tascam interface, without a cloudlifter, and I have one sitting on the top, but it’s not needed. It IS needed if I connect to a preamp I use in the video studio, this preamp just hisses above half way gain, but is fine with then cloudlifter. Your preamp also has a ¼” on the back which could go into the mixer line input? Have you tried that. You need to spend some time experimenting and assessing. You’re not going to damage anything, the worst would be shreaks or distortion if you get it wrong. Just turn the gains on both devices down, start on the preamp, make that sound good, then bring the gain up on the mixer. I’m just so confused why you’ve not done this? It’s all about your ears. If I had spent this kind of money on a preamp, I’d know it very well by now and worked out the optimum settings. The Yamaha PA will be perfectly happy with this.
Click to expand...
Thanks Rob.
I turn the knob on the gain on the input channel on the mixer (not on the the Great River) to 70% and anything over that it clips (though it gives me just enough volume at 70%).
The reason I haven't tried anything with the Great River is because I just got it. I got it for the purposes of feeding into my interface, but then I started thinking about using it with the mixer given the problems I've experienced with it recently.
So you're saying the best bet would be to try and go from the 1/4 on the Great River to line input on the mixer? Though I can also try XLR (it would obviously just be weaker?).
 
Last edited:
I'm guessing the 'shriek' is feedback. Feedback won't hurt the preamps or inputs, but could blow a speaker or output circuit.
 
gene12586 said:
Hi all,

I'm singing into a dynamic microphone which is plugged into a stand-alone preamp via XLR cable, and then I'm running the preamp via XLR cable into one of the inputs of my mixer which is part of my PA system. The PA system is the Yamaha Stagepas 600i. I think I remember reading somewhere that most mixers have internal preamps and that you may need to bypass the internal preamp if you're inputting from an external preamp. I was looking at the manual for the Stagepas and see nothing about any internal preamps or having to bypass them if plugging in an external preamp. So I'm taking it I can simply just safely run the external preamp into the Stagepas and sing away without any problems. Is that right, or do I need to somehow bypass whatever internal preamp the Stagepas has?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
 
make sure the gain is set optimally on your standalone (green into yellow never red) then on your PA head, set your gain to zero and very gradually increase it so you have a green-to-yellow-never-red signal coming from your PA head.
 
gene12586 said:
Thanks Rob.
I turn the knob on the gain on the input channel on the mixer (not on the the Great River) to 70% and anything over that it clips (though it gives me just enough volume at 70%).
Click to expand...
So the real problem isn't that the input isn't sensitive enough but that your PA isn't powerful enough. I wonder if you are expecting too much from the Stagepas. They are great PA systems for acoustic bands but could struggle if you are trying to overcome a loud drummer.
 
jamesperrett said:
So the real problem isn't that the input isn't sensitive enough but that your PA isn't powerful enough. I wonder if you are expecting too much from the Stagepas. They are great PA systems for acoustic bands but could struggle if you are trying to overcome a loud drummer.
Click to expand...
and I'm sure someone else has commented on this, and/or you have thought about this: But, you have to trace the signal all the way back to the source input which is your voice or whatever you're putting through the microphone if you don't have a strong signal to begin, with your gain stages will not do the trick when it finally reaches your speakers. we had a singer in our band that did not have hardly any strength coming into the mic and we couldn't get her vocals to come out strong through the PA no matter what we did with gains, volumes, compressions etc. just a thought.
 
gene12586 said:
Thanks. Can you clarify what you mean by defeat? I'm not sure I understand.
Click to expand...
You do not recognize 'defeat' when I'm showing it ? Then I don't understand defeat either!

De-Feet, De-Foot, De-faught.. noun./adverb.
-to remove one's feet.
 
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