With the GREATEST respect Jay, I would put Performer at the top of that list!
Dave. (BTW. Webmaster never came back to me, must give him a poke!)
Do 'Good' mic pre's make a difference, to you?
- Thread starter superspit
- Start date
With the GREATEST respect Jay, I would put Performer at the top of that list!
Dave. (BTW. Webmaster never came back to me, must give him a poke!)
Farview
Well-known member
The reason I didn't count the performer is because I didn't want to get into the type of drugs he is doing and all that...
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
The other reason not to mention the performer is that it's usually the one thing we can't change. Either it's a person recording himself or (in my case) a person I've been roped into recording. In either case, all you can do is make the rest of the items as good as you can!
Farview
Well-known member
I remember a time when that wasn't the case. I remember a producer wanting to replace me on one of our songs (at our own expense), because I wasn't giving it the feel he thought it should have.
I'm pretty sure that my band mates would have sold me out, if the money was there. So you can change the musician, it's just not a popular choice with the guy who thought HE was going to be the musician.
jimmys69
MOODerator
Ok! Did not mean selling anyone down the tin pan river! No, just that IF you happen to have J Bream on guitar you are likely to get a better sound than exactly the same setup with the guy from the Dog&Duck even tho' he might be a very decent guitarist. (might not grunt as much tho'but!)
Dave.
Dave.
jimmys69
MOODerator
You do realize that many people do not know who J Bream is, and definitely not the bar down the street from you right? LOL I agree though.
ibleedburgundy
The Anti-Lambo
Yeah, I have an audient ASP008. At middling levels it doesn't sound extraordinary or anything, but unlike other preamps I've had, you can crank it almost all the way up and there is still very little hiss.
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On a single instance basis the difference in a $200 clean pre and a $2000 clean pre is usually pretty negligible. When you start stacking tracks, that is when you see the value of an expensive pre. Also, we need to remember that when it comes to design, any engineer can get you 98% there. It costs exponentially more to extract the last little bits out of any system. It will cost 10 times more to reach the next 1% of performance and 100 times more to get the last .9%. You never get the last .1%, that's the devils cut.
Yes, heard this "stacking" argument before and about other components. Never seen/heard any kind of evidence for it nor any attempt to come up with a mechanism.
The "Law of Diminishing Returns" has been spoken of in audio circles for more than 5 decades to my knowledge, just more unsupportable waffle IMHO. The diminished 1% is never defined.
Dave.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Hmmmm...partial agreement here. Using "okay" pre amps in any decent interface or mixer, I've never noticed a stacking effect either. The noise floor is low enough that you'd have to put an awful lot of different tracks together for it to become audible. Add to this the fact that I tend to use different mics (and therefore different level settings on the pre amp) as I move through the session, that also mitigates against a problem of stacking.
I do sort of agree with the law of diminishing returns though. A $200 microphone is going to be vastly better than a $20 one you found on eBay. A $400 mic is probably audibly better than the $200 one. Beyond that, it gets more fuzzy. I couldn't argue that a $2000 mic is measurably better than the $400 one...or maybe even the $200 one. By this stage we're getting into subtle differences that are quite likely made null and void by problems with the acoustic space, mic placement or mic technique by the artist.
Note that I talked about microphones. The same applies even more to microphone pre amps. You don't have to go far up market in terms of interfaces or mixers to find a unit that have a flat frequency response and enough clean gain even for low output dynamics. Beyond that, you're not necessarily paying for measurably "better" quality. You're paying for little colorations that sound better to your ear--and everyone's taste is different. If the $2000 pre amp gives you a sound you like (and you can afford it without starving the family) then go for it. However, you're probably paying for "different" rather than "better".
I do sort of agree with the law of diminishing returns though. A $200 microphone is going to be vastly better than a $20 one you found on eBay. A $400 mic is probably audibly better than the $200 one. Beyond that, it gets more fuzzy. I couldn't argue that a $2000 mic is measurably better than the $400 one...or maybe even the $200 one. By this stage we're getting into subtle differences that are quite likely made null and void by problems with the acoustic space, mic placement or mic technique by the artist.
Note that I talked about microphones. The same applies even more to microphone pre amps. You don't have to go far up market in terms of interfaces or mixers to find a unit that have a flat frequency response and enough clean gain even for low output dynamics. Beyond that, you're not necessarily paying for measurably "better" quality. You're paying for little colorations that sound better to your ear--and everyone's taste is different. If the $2000 pre amp gives you a sound you like (and you can afford it without starving the family) then go for it. However, you're probably paying for "different" rather than "better".
Farview
Well-known member
I think that argument started with mics, and it was incorrectly called "stacking". Like when you record every instrument with a 57.
However, in that instance, I don't think it is stacking as much as the mic (or the mics response) can be looked at as a filter. So if everything is recorded with that mic, everything will have that same filter on it.
The same thing would happen with preamps that have a sound to them. That sound isn't stacking, it's just the filter that everything is run through.
However, in that instance, I don't think it is stacking as much as the mic (or the mics response) can be looked at as a filter. So if everything is recorded with that mic, everything will have that same filter on it.
The same thing would happen with preamps that have a sound to them. That sound isn't stacking, it's just the filter that everything is run through.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I still say...we don't know what we don't know.
Way too many opinions based on hearing other people's opinions that are based on something they read on the internet, written by some guy who based his opinion on something he heard on another audio forum.
Not "gear shaming" here...but too many folks on home rec forums only know/experience a single mic, maybe two...and just the pre that came with their low budget interface, and after that, just lots of plugs.
Some of those same people give out tons of opinions on gear they've never used and on recording situation they've never been in.
It's mostly internet learned knowledge and virtual experience.
Way too many opinions based on hearing other people's opinions that are based on something they read on the internet, written by some guy who based his opinion on something he heard on another audio forum.
Not "gear shaming" here...but too many folks on home rec forums only know/experience a single mic, maybe two...and just the pre that came with their low budget interface, and after that, just lots of plugs.
Some of those same people give out tons of opinions on gear they've never used and on recording situation they've never been in.
It's mostly internet learned knowledge and virtual experience.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
Accuracy and lack of noise and distortion are essential in the storage and transmission of audio, but the generation and manipulation of audio benefits from certain types of inaccuracy. Once basic frequency response, distortion and noise performance is up to adequate levels what you get from expensive gear is subjective improvement, sound quality that is just more pleasant to most people and/or especially flattering on certain sources. Technically gear like that is less accurate but the inaccuracies are consistent, predictable and useful.
I still say...we don't know what we don't know.
Way too many opinions based on hearing other people's opinions that are based on something they read on the internet, written by some guy who based his opinion on something he heard on another audio forum.
Not "gear shaming" here...but too many folks on home rec forums only know/experience a single mic, maybe two...and just the pre that came with their low budget interface, and after that, just lots of plugs.
Some of those same people give out tons of opinions on gear they've never used and on recording situation they've never been in.
It's mostly internet learned knowledge and virtual experience.
Boom. Truthbomb.
ibleedburgundy
The Anti-Lambo
Wouldn't something like that be relatively easy to test? True or false, somebody has probably tested it. I am not finding results in a quick internet search though.
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
Regarding "stacking", if a preamp has a 2dB bump at 1kHz and you record 16 tracks through it then mix them together the end result will be a mix with a 2dB bump at 1kHz, which you can correct with a 2dB cut at 1kHz. Ideally that cut would be the first thing applied to each track, but you could do it on the master bus. The only difference would be the way dynamics processors work, and that would be a minimal difference with a 2dB bump at 1kHz.
Noise can add up but really only the track or tracks with the loudest noise contribute noticeably.
Noise can add up but really only the track or tracks with the loudest noise contribute noticeably.
When I started out I had a Tascam Mixer. I thought I was doing pretty good until I got a new Symetrix preamp; the difference was pretty amazing. So I recorded everything one track at a time and the mixes sounded much better because the source was better. Over the years I worked my way up to Sytek and Focusrite ISA pres with increasingly better results. Now I have some Trident 70 series strips racked up, several API and Neve clone strips and some boutique pres like a Grace 101. With each step up the chain my mixes got progressively cleaner, more refined and fuller with more "air". I still have some Symetrix and TL Audio pres in a rack that I do some mobile work with and the difference is astounding. A single track can sound pretty good but when you start to "stack" them up in a mix it just gets muddy and thin and gross. I don't know how else to describe it other than when you "stack" a bunch of tracks recorded through the Grace they sound amazing and when the same type of thing is recorded through the cheapies it sounds like amatuer hour. I have found that a bunch of cheap pres of differing makes and models suffers from this effect less than if it was all recorded through one brand of cheap preamp.