hemmick reef
New member
Just wondering how the Lexicon MX range, for example, compare to plugin reverbs at present?
Do budget hardware reverbs sound better than software?
- Thread starter hemmick reef
- Start date
dkelley
Active member
I'm bored so here's a long rambling boring monologue about my opinions on reverbs for what it's worth.
for some things nice plugins are better than for example the mx range (to answer your question). You can get by fine either way though.
for me though, here is my long winded thought process about cheap hardware verbs vs. any and all plugin verbs:
what I despise about reverb plugs is:
- cpu usage - it's my daw, I wont' want to lose stability/track count from adding reverb
- processing speed - it's my daw, (continue quote ;-)
- UI responsiveness - it's my daw,....
and finally
- most verb plugins sound like crap (there are definitely exceptions of course)
that being said, many reverb algos in mx series etc sound like crap too.
but in hardware reverbs you get the following (not just talking mx series here, which I don't actually own but have messed with, I own other similar priced units though):
- latency is so low as to be non-existent (hardware units tend to be designed to keep latency as low as possible, and in reverb outboard a tiny speck of delay can be an attractive thing imho, but it's always virtually latency free from my experience, even with cheap units)
- cpu/ui/responsiveness/memory use in daw isn't affected (sweet!!!)
- there are ALWAYS at least one or two algos in a hardware verb that sound absolutely terrific if used appropriately.
for example: I work in some nice studios, but we'll talk about my low budget home studio here. I own and currently use the following reverb units:
- ibanez sdr-1000 ($120 used, it's actually a sony unit relabeled for distribution reasons, it turned into the sony MU-R201 reverb eventually, basically the same thing with a couple more algos).
- lexicon alex ($40 used without wallwart - using the one from my alesis drum machine (9vac 1 amp more or less, same specs)
I've had other units, behringer vverb (great), yamaha units (from fx500 up to rev 5, all great for what they do best, spx 90 has some uses too for cheap)
lots of others, lexicon mpx, mx, many other cheap lexis, kurzweil rumor, etc.
anyway, the point is, I love my reverb boxes.
the lexicon alex is an example of something that can sound like crap on many settings but has a couple that are simply beautiful. also it's presets suck (don't they all eh?). gold plate is great but needs tweaking for great sound. another one forget what it is, same thing. otherwise useless verb box for the studio. for $40 though those two settings are as good as anything I can get out of the very best plugins and I don't have to tax my computer. Also I work outside the box a lot so throwing alex on an aux is easy as pie for me. great while tracking and mixing.
the ibanez/sony unit is simply unbelievable. most algos in it are perfectly useful right out of the box. it's high end studio quality sounding imho. it doesn't miss anything that high end lexis have. it's tails are random complex stuff (only fancy lexi stuff does that), but they are perfectly convincing without any nasty artifacts as long as you know how to set it well. that's a case of learning the unit (bizarre UI) and understanding what's going on and what you're trying to do with the sound.
so those two units are my outboard verbs for now. I have outboard delay as well (another ibanez) and will grab another outboard verb sometime... another flavor for sure, maybe an spx again for the hell of it. my other units are all gone now. I get bored - I change. but I will never get rid of the ibanez/sony unit.
one quick explanation - convolution verbs can copy anything perfectly, but in their basic form there is nothing changing over time with the algo. there are convo verbs that have changing algos over time, but the definition of convo verbs doesn't include that spec. so that's one thing I dislike about convo verbs, although if you need one specific sound you can get it that way in a perfect copy. anyway, convo = very high (for me, way too high) cpu use, boring tails, good for short stuff, not so good for long stuff imho.
other plug in verbs are more like the digital outboard we're talking about - someone's idea of a good reverb, maybe not an exact recording of something like convos are though. many cheap verbs (quadraverb anyone) are fancy delay boxes with wierd tails. by the way I have one of those somewhere too but can't find it - my studio's a mess - anyway the quadraverb still gets use as well (does it's thing better than any plugin, dirty tails are fun on some things and great ping pong delays etc).
but I firmly believe that people who in the older days made outboard verbs simply put more work into them sounding great than most plugin designers have done (waves, digi, uad etc aside). so they simply sound better. specs might be worse, but the sound is more useful.
I recommend outboard verbs but only if you have the remaining hardware to work with it well. mixing outside the box makes it easy, if you mix in the box then you have to setup aux sends in the daw that actually go out through your device and back in again. it works too, just more hassle imho. but worth it.
the mx series will have some good verbs ,a lot of crap too prob. remember verb works best when used very little in the mix. not too obvious. 1980s music aside... ;-)
cheers,
Don
for some things nice plugins are better than for example the mx range (to answer your question). You can get by fine either way though.
for me though, here is my long winded thought process about cheap hardware verbs vs. any and all plugin verbs:
what I despise about reverb plugs is:
- cpu usage - it's my daw, I wont' want to lose stability/track count from adding reverb
- processing speed - it's my daw, (continue quote ;-)
- UI responsiveness - it's my daw,....
and finally
- most verb plugins sound like crap (there are definitely exceptions of course)
that being said, many reverb algos in mx series etc sound like crap too.
but in hardware reverbs you get the following (not just talking mx series here, which I don't actually own but have messed with, I own other similar priced units though):
- latency is so low as to be non-existent (hardware units tend to be designed to keep latency as low as possible, and in reverb outboard a tiny speck of delay can be an attractive thing imho, but it's always virtually latency free from my experience, even with cheap units)
- cpu/ui/responsiveness/memory use in daw isn't affected (sweet!!!)
- there are ALWAYS at least one or two algos in a hardware verb that sound absolutely terrific if used appropriately.
for example: I work in some nice studios, but we'll talk about my low budget home studio here. I own and currently use the following reverb units:
- ibanez sdr-1000 ($120 used, it's actually a sony unit relabeled for distribution reasons, it turned into the sony MU-R201 reverb eventually, basically the same thing with a couple more algos).
- lexicon alex ($40 used without wallwart - using the one from my alesis drum machine (9vac 1 amp more or less, same specs)
I've had other units, behringer vverb (great), yamaha units (from fx500 up to rev 5, all great for what they do best, spx 90 has some uses too for cheap)
lots of others, lexicon mpx, mx, many other cheap lexis, kurzweil rumor, etc.
anyway, the point is, I love my reverb boxes.
the lexicon alex is an example of something that can sound like crap on many settings but has a couple that are simply beautiful. also it's presets suck (don't they all eh?). gold plate is great but needs tweaking for great sound. another one forget what it is, same thing. otherwise useless verb box for the studio. for $40 though those two settings are as good as anything I can get out of the very best plugins and I don't have to tax my computer. Also I work outside the box a lot so throwing alex on an aux is easy as pie for me. great while tracking and mixing.
the ibanez/sony unit is simply unbelievable. most algos in it are perfectly useful right out of the box. it's high end studio quality sounding imho. it doesn't miss anything that high end lexis have. it's tails are random complex stuff (only fancy lexi stuff does that), but they are perfectly convincing without any nasty artifacts as long as you know how to set it well. that's a case of learning the unit (bizarre UI) and understanding what's going on and what you're trying to do with the sound.
so those two units are my outboard verbs for now. I have outboard delay as well (another ibanez) and will grab another outboard verb sometime... another flavor for sure, maybe an spx again for the hell of it. my other units are all gone now. I get bored - I change. but I will never get rid of the ibanez/sony unit.
one quick explanation - convolution verbs can copy anything perfectly, but in their basic form there is nothing changing over time with the algo. there are convo verbs that have changing algos over time, but the definition of convo verbs doesn't include that spec. so that's one thing I dislike about convo verbs, although if you need one specific sound you can get it that way in a perfect copy. anyway, convo = very high (for me, way too high) cpu use, boring tails, good for short stuff, not so good for long stuff imho.
other plug in verbs are more like the digital outboard we're talking about - someone's idea of a good reverb, maybe not an exact recording of something like convos are though. many cheap verbs (quadraverb anyone) are fancy delay boxes with wierd tails. by the way I have one of those somewhere too but can't find it - my studio's a mess - anyway the quadraverb still gets use as well (does it's thing better than any plugin, dirty tails are fun on some things and great ping pong delays etc).
but I firmly believe that people who in the older days made outboard verbs simply put more work into them sounding great than most plugin designers have done (waves, digi, uad etc aside). so they simply sound better. specs might be worse, but the sound is more useful.
I recommend outboard verbs but only if you have the remaining hardware to work with it well. mixing outside the box makes it easy, if you mix in the box then you have to setup aux sends in the daw that actually go out through your device and back in again. it works too, just more hassle imho. but worth it.
the mx series will have some good verbs ,a lot of crap too prob. remember verb works best when used very little in the mix. not too obvious. 1980s music aside... ;-)
cheers,
Don
suprstar
It aint ez being green
I think in general plugins sound better unless you have some high end hardware.. I use hardware for comfort fx while tracking, but I dont record it.. If plugins are bogging down your cpu, you can render the track with the reverb applied and continue on. Yeah it's a PITA to tweak the reverb later, but it's give/take...
Weasel9992
New member
hahahaha...
I agree with Don, actually...and I have some very decent reverb plugins (UAD stuff and the Voxengo impulse reverb). I still prefer my Rev5's and Kurzweil Rumour in most cases. They have a bigger, broader feel than the plugins, especially on short reverbs. When we're talking about long, lush reverbs then the plugin starts earning its keep...to get that out of a hardware unit you're looking at some fairly serious money.
Frank
dkelley
Active member
very true. good point about the long lush thing. although my ibanez/sony does that way better than I ever expected.
and for mr. ebay, I'll ixnay on the other unitsay for another week ;-)
hemmick reef
New member
Definitely worth it....it's interesting to get this sort of feedback.
I must be honest in saying that I have a Lexicon LXP-1, which I was going to sell, thinking that modern units would be better and more versitile. I may put that on hold for now!
guitar zero
c = b#
Picked up a kurzweil rumour from fleabay because I wasn't thrilled with the software verbs, and I have to say that for the money I'm pleasantly surprised. Definitely an improvement in sound for me. It's not a Bricasti, but then again, I don't have $3600 for a reverb unit either. The kurz is a great compromise in a reverb box. They basically took the reverb section out of their ksp8 model and sell it for a fraction of the cost. Well worth it, I think. I have yet to use it on entire mixes yet, which I can't wait to try.
GZ
GZ
Weasel9992
New member
The Kurzweil Rumour is one of the good ones. I guess my opinion about inexpensive hardware reverbs is the same for budget hardware of any type: as long as your expectations are reasonable, you won't be disappointed.
Frank
mixmkr
we don't need rest!!
I think the convolution reverbs put the <$200 reverbs to shame. I think they're pretty good actually.
I've never had a PCM lexi or Rumor or Eventide upper end in my home studio, but have used them at places I've been. They were definately a head turner.
But I've got some Lexicon impulses for my convolution reverbs that are pretty sweet too.
This recording doesn't have all that much going on, but uses a Taj mahal impulse in the beginning, some rooms and others later on...all convolutions on this one....I think
http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=17763
I've never had a PCM lexi or Rumor or Eventide upper end in my home studio, but have used them at places I've been. They were definately a head turner.
But I've got some Lexicon impulses for my convolution reverbs that are pretty sweet too.
This recording doesn't have all that much going on, but uses a Taj mahal impulse in the beginning, some rooms and others later on...all convolutions on this one....I think
http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?id=17763