I
I Got Riffs
New member
Anybody know how I can use a DIY piezo drum trigger to take the place of the keys in a midi keyboard?
Last edited:
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
You'd need some device that converts trigger to MIDI, (in short it takes an analog elctrical spike and sends out a digital MIDI-note ON/Off "message").
There are dedicated devices and there are some units that have such "feature" or say - function, some are more simple and some are more sophisticated.
Here's roland's dedicated device: http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=224. (I personally never had this one, so can not tell anything specific)
I actually use an old Drum Kat V2 for that purpose , that I've got for around 70 bucks, some pads didn't work, but the rest of the unit was working. V2 has assignable triggers inputs and MIDI-out. You may find an old used DrumKat with triggers inputs on eBay for not too high price. If you be getting a drumKat, then Make sure you get the manual for it, you'll need one!!!!!!!, as without manual its simply not possible to figure out how to do settings/edditing etc...
Here's the page on my site that has some demonstrations: http://www.mzentertainment.com/studio_workshop_drumkat_v2.html,
I 've made some "special convenience" modifications of mine, but you don't need to mod it at all to use it as triggers-to-midi converter. You just need to learn how to assign the trigger inputs to a specific MIDI-note (sound) and save the "programs" etc and of course you'd need to learn how to use the thing in general
There's the video link on that page (it's the second link there in "video clips"), titled as "analog trigger sequencer to midi demonstration". I do not use drum-pads triggers there, but instead the analog trigger sequencer does "the work", which is the same thing technically speaking. The triggers output from the analog sequencer are connected to DrumKat's triggers inputs and the MIDI out from DrumKat to midi input of Roland JV1080 MIDI synthesizer (that is where the "kik" "snare" and "hats" drum-sounds are "coming from"). Well, you get the picture.
In your case, as I would think, you'd connect your "diy trigger pad" to the trigger input of the trigger-to-midi converter-device and the midi out from the "converter device" to midi input of your midi-keyboard or midi-synth (what ever you are using). You hit the pad and it "plays" the midi-"sound" (what ever sound/note is assigned).
Hope it does not sound too complicated
There are dedicated devices and there are some units that have such "feature" or say - function, some are more simple and some are more sophisticated.
Here's roland's dedicated device: http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=224. (I personally never had this one, so can not tell anything specific)
I actually use an old Drum Kat V2 for that purpose , that I've got for around 70 bucks, some pads didn't work, but the rest of the unit was working. V2 has assignable triggers inputs and MIDI-out. You may find an old used DrumKat with triggers inputs on eBay for not too high price. If you be getting a drumKat, then Make sure you get the manual for it, you'll need one!!!!!!!, as without manual its simply not possible to figure out how to do settings/edditing etc...
Here's the page on my site that has some demonstrations: http://www.mzentertainment.com/studio_workshop_drumkat_v2.html,
I 've made some "special convenience" modifications of mine, but you don't need to mod it at all to use it as triggers-to-midi converter. You just need to learn how to assign the trigger inputs to a specific MIDI-note (sound) and save the "programs" etc and of course you'd need to learn how to use the thing in general
There's the video link on that page (it's the second link there in "video clips"), titled as "analog trigger sequencer to midi demonstration". I do not use drum-pads triggers there, but instead the analog trigger sequencer does "the work", which is the same thing technically speaking. The triggers output from the analog sequencer are connected to DrumKat's triggers inputs and the MIDI out from DrumKat to midi input of Roland JV1080 MIDI synthesizer (that is where the "kik" "snare" and "hats" drum-sounds are "coming from"). Well, you get the picture.
In your case, as I would think, you'd connect your "diy trigger pad" to the trigger input of the trigger-to-midi converter-device and the midi out from the "converter device" to midi input of your midi-keyboard or midi-synth (what ever you are using). You hit the pad and it "plays" the midi-"sound" (what ever sound/note is assigned).
Hope it does not sound too complicated
I
I Got Riffs
New member
I'm thinking I wouldn't need any other device - the idea is that I'm using the keyboard as a module that converts to midi and connects to my PC to trigger the sample of my choice in a vst.
I've already plugged the piezo into where the keys plugged into, but one of the first issues is that I seem to need 3 connections to get a velocity-sensitive trigger((discovered this before attaching the piezo by touching the ends of the wires together in the correct sequence. The piezo only has two leads. So I've played around with several combinations as to how to connect them. I was getting non-velocity sensitive triggers from it when I hooked two of them together, but then the big problem was that it was way too sensitive and was firing at random even without any movement whatsoever. I then put a pot in the line and that seemed to help a bit, but it was very inconsistant.
I'm using a Yamaha PSR-293.
I've already plugged the piezo into where the keys plugged into, but one of the first issues is that I seem to need 3 connections to get a velocity-sensitive trigger((discovered this before attaching the piezo by touching the ends of the wires together in the correct sequence. The piezo only has two leads. So I've played around with several combinations as to how to connect them. I was getting non-velocity sensitive triggers from it when I hooked two of them together, but then the big problem was that it was way too sensitive and was firing at random even without any movement whatsoever. I then put a pot in the line and that seemed to help a bit, but it was very inconsistant.
I'm using a Yamaha PSR-293.
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
uh, I didn't take "take the place of the keys" part literally.
So in this case, I have no clue I only could guess "theoretically", and I'd imagine that as a starter , first, you'd need to know EXACTLY what the keys in your keyboad DO (electronically speaking)...
Invent something!
So in this case, I have no clue
I only could guess "theoretically", and I'd imagine that as a starter , first, you'd need to know EXACTLY what the keys in your keyboad DO (electronically speaking)...Invent something!
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
Maybe you need to try a Force Sensing Resistor(s) (FSR) instead of a piezo disc. ???
Google it.
Google it.
I
I Got Riffs
New member
But those piezos work so well with a proper drum module. Is it the modules that provide the velocity-sensitive atributes?
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
Yes they do.
now back to YOUR "situation"
I myself have never dissected a midi-keyboard ...so I am ignorant there
so I'll be just ranting here:
In general, the way a midi-controller works is something like this: Amount of "pressure" or "force" applied onto a key or a pad is being "translated" into "amount of electrical resistance" in the electrical circuit, the resistance is being "translated" into voltage and the voltage - into MIDI digital "matter".
technically speaking, Velocity sensitive key is (afaik) a "variable resistor". That's why I think that a FSR is the "appropriate device" to be used as a midi-keyboard's "key replacement".
You can try "replacing" a key in midi-keyboard with a push-button (momentory normally open) switch and a potentiometer (adjustable resistor, that is) in series, then you set the Potentiometer to a certain "level" and push the switch, see what happens...
I am wildly guessing around here, really I have no clue as I've never done anything like this with a keyboard..
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
I was trying to find that "b-board conversation" that I've read and gave up trying to find it. anyhow...
So, keep in mind again, that I don't really know this stuff. So...
The other thing could be here is this. I've read someone mentioning that in velocity sensitive keyboards (or some of them ???) the "velocity" (or say , the "information" about how hard or fast does the player strike the key) is being derived from Time between switching action. When you press the key, one contact of the switch gets disconnected and then the other contact gets connected. So the time between disconnection and connection is being "measured" and "translated" into digital "velocity" value.
So if this is the case, then neither Piezo disc neither FSR will do "duplicate" the key's action in the "controller's system.
Hope, what I'm ranting about here makes some sense to you
So, keep in mind again, that I don't really know this stuff. So...
The other thing could be here is this. I've read someone mentioning that in velocity sensitive keyboards (or some of them ???) the "velocity" (or say , the "information" about how hard or fast does the player strike the key) is being derived from Time between switching action. When you press the key, one contact of the switch gets disconnected and then the other contact gets connected. So the time between disconnection and connection is being "measured" and "translated" into digital "velocity" value.
So if this is the case, then neither Piezo disc neither FSR will do "duplicate" the key's action in the "controller's system.
Hope, what I'm ranting about here makes some sense to you
I
I Got Riffs
New member
I was trying to find that "b-board conversation" that I've read and gave up trying to find it. anyhow...
So, keep in mind again, that I don't really know this stuff. So...
The other thing could be here is this. I've read someone mentioning that in velocity sensitive keyboards (or some of them ???) the "velocity" (or say , the "information" about how hard or fast does the player strike the key) is being derived from Time between switching action. When you press the key, one contact of the switch gets disconnected and then the other contact gets connected. So the time between disconnection and connection is being "measured" and "translated" into digital "velocity" value.
So if this is the case, then neither Piezo disc neither FSR will do "duplicate" the key's action in the "controller's system.
Hope, what I'm ranting about here makes some sense to you
Yeah, I pretty much figured out all this by touching the wires together and as I think I mentioned earlier, I knew right away that this would be trouble just because the keys required 3 contact points as opposed to a mic only needing two. Thank you for your input though!
I'd still like to put some use to the keyboard brain(the keys went in the trash a while ago), but I'm not sure exactly what.
On a different note, an impulse stop at the pawn shop today scored me an Alesis DM5 for $90! So the project of building my own pads is back on track. I'll update and let you know how it goes.
T
tango44
New member
Perhaps I missed it, but in case I didn't....
Piezo electric transducers, under a mousepad, mounted on something(ie wood pad), will work great with your dm5. Before i had the cash to get a Yamaha DTXpress IV special kit, I used this method to build an electronic kit. I used schedule 80 2" pvc pipe to build the drum kit frame, and wood decks, with mouse pads and P.E.T.'s under them for the pads.
You can get them at radio shack for about .35 to .65 cents a piece I think. that's where i got mine. I used 10 for the pads, and the extra 2 i mounted to frame to cancel out any inadvertant triggering from frame vibration. Worked very well.
Piezo electric transducers, under a mousepad, mounted on something(ie wood pad), will work great with your dm5. Before i had the cash to get a Yamaha DTXpress IV special kit, I used this method to build an electronic kit. I used schedule 80 2" pvc pipe to build the drum kit frame, and wood decks, with mouse pads and P.E.T.'s under them for the pads.
You can get them at radio shack for about .35 to .65 cents a piece I think. that's where i got mine. I used 10 for the pads, and the extra 2 i mounted to frame to cancel out any inadvertant triggering from frame vibration. Worked very well.
I
I Got Riffs
New member
Seems Radio Shack wanted a bit more than that for them - closer to $2 or so if I remember correctly. I've been very careful brainstorming ideas before buying materials. I live about 50 yards from Radio Shack, so it's very easy to go over my budget when I think I need something.
The mousepads sound like a good idea. I'm not looking for something that totally mimics real drums, but I do want something that a drummer(I'm not a drummer) wouldn't have a problem playing on. I also want something pretty quiet for my apartment.
I'm not sure I understand how this works. Could you explain?
The mousepads sound like a good idea. I'm not looking for something that totally mimics real drums, but I do want something that a drummer(I'm not a drummer) wouldn't have a problem playing on. I also want something pretty quiet for my apartment.
I'm not sure I understand how this works. Could you explain?
D
dintymoore
Guest
Buying an Alesis D4 (or later) and a package of drum triggers would certainly give you a lot to build on, but that's over $100 already.
Try going on Google and search for "diy drum pads".
The trouble is that those are all just for pads, not with sounds or MIDI.
Yamaha has made some El Cheapo drum pad setups, this is even an expensive compared to some I've seen:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Yamaha-DD-20c-d...yboards_MIDI?hash=item2556af714f#ht_500wt_975
The pads on those aren't bad at all. I've seen some earlier versions of those for much less, like $10 - 20 used. They had all the basic sounds and you can program the pads, so I would imagine you could take apart one or two pads and run a wire to make a bass drum and so on. Plus it gives you a drum machine to play along with.
You might be able to find one on Craigslist or run an ad on Craigslist saying you want to buy one for $10, you'd be surprised that doing that can work, 'cause there's someone out there who has one they don't want.
Try going on Google and search for "diy drum pads".
The trouble is that those are all just for pads, not with sounds or MIDI.
Yamaha has made some El Cheapo drum pad setups, this is even an expensive compared to some I've seen:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Yamaha-DD-20c-d...yboards_MIDI?hash=item2556af714f#ht_500wt_975
The pads on those aren't bad at all. I've seen some earlier versions of those for much less, like $10 - 20 used. They had all the basic sounds and you can program the pads, so I would imagine you could take apart one or two pads and run a wire to make a bass drum and so on. Plus it gives you a drum machine to play along with.
You might be able to find one on Craigslist or run an ad on Craigslist saying you want to buy one for $10, you'd be surprised that doing that can work, 'cause there's someone out there who has one they don't want.
M
MCI2424
New member
I was trying to find that "b-board conversation" that I've read and gave up trying to find it. anyhow...
So, keep in mind again, that I don't really know this stuff. So...
The other thing could be here is this. I've read someone mentioning that in velocity sensitive keyboards (or some of them ???) the "velocity" (or say , the "information" about how hard or fast does the player strike the key) is being derived from Time between switching action. When you press the key, one contact of the switch gets disconnected and then the other contact gets connected. So the time between disconnection and connection is being "measured" and "translated" into digital "velocity" value.
So if this is the case, then neither Piezo disc neither FSR will do "duplicate" the key's action in the "controller's system.
Hope, what I'm ranting about here makes some sense to you
............................wow
D
dintymoore
Guest
That makes triggers. But the triggers are just that, and what do they trigger?
Cheapest thing really that makes sense is a used D4 for $80 and a set of triggers, either scoffed from microwaves and smoke alarms, which isn't always that easy, or just buy a bag of triggers for $30.
I have that setup, have used it at gigs, and there's nothing bad about it.
Making your own triggers gets tricky sometimes getting a drum not to trigger the one next to it.
In some ways the best thing might be to use a cheap drum kit and put wood discs with triggers on them.
D
dervish riff
New member
I use a Yamaha DD-55 I got at the Salvation Army for $25.00. The little button pedals were a PIA, so I got a drum pedal a couple months later at the SA and built a kick drum trigger on a frame and fastened the pedal to it. This works much better, just plug the pedal/trigger into the pedal jack--that's it.
I use a keyboard sustain pedal for the hi-hat, it's better than the factory pedal, but I'm working on finding a better arrangement.
I use a keyboard sustain pedal for the hi-hat, it's better than the factory pedal, but I'm working on finding a better arrangement.
I
I Got Riffs
New member
I've already finished making pads - made some wood discs and glued the foam to them and then plan on adding another layer of material to cover up screw holes before I'm done.
I also built a rack out of pvc that seems like a nice design, but... now I'm stuck at how I should mount the pads to the rack. Already tried an idea which didn't work (too much vibration from 1/4" steel rods), so that's money down the drain. I have another idea, but I'd really like to keep it cheap. The pads are probably about a half pound or more each and I want them set at realistic angles and spacing. So I still have a lot more brainstorming to do so that I can know exactly what I need before I buy more materials.
I also built a rack out of pvc that seems like a nice design, but... now I'm stuck at how I should mount the pads to the rack. Already tried an idea which didn't work (too much vibration from 1/4" steel rods), so that's money down the drain. I have another idea, but I'd really like to keep it cheap. The pads are probably about a half pound or more each and I want them set at realistic angles and spacing. So I still have a lot more brainstorming to do so that I can know exactly what I need before I buy more materials.