Distorted Guitar, how's my Mix?

  • Thread starter Thread starter WeeWoo
  • Start date Start date
The guitar tone isn't bad. There's a little more "sizzle" in there than I like. (Might be direct?) Less gain/distortion will actually give you a bigger sound. Is it double tracked? Less gain + double tracking will make it sound nice and big.

The guitar is too dominating in the mix. The drums should come up a bit, and the bass even more.

When you have a chance, why don't you tell us your recording chain.
 
jndietz said:
wtf?

it sounds like pure MIDI.
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Does it? Are my ears that bad? I checked it out on computer speakers (not built in, you know what I mean). I'll dig out some decent cans that are buried in my desk and listen again...
 
I dunno...sounds more like a high gain, compressed DI signal to me. (I should know better as a guitarist--but I've never used midi for guitar, and if I tried I could get his sound--so I'm just assuming it's a plank of wood w/strings on it.)
 
Whitestrat is correct it's a sort of direct injection.

The guitar obviously isn't midi, the drums are from EZdrummer and bass is from Absynth 4.

As for the signal chain:

Each guitar track goes through an FX channel that has the following:
1. Multiband comp - Volume
2. Classic EQ - Aggressive, general tone shaping
3. Prametric EQ - Noise removal (pick attack)
4. Channel EQ - Add subtle fatness and scoop

Drums:
1. Multiband comp - Volume

Bass
1. Multiband Comp -Volume
2. Limiter - Cut off subsonic noise

Master Out:
1. Limiter. - Prevent clipping

I just realized I have no Master Out comp or EQ so I can do some work there to bring out the bass and drums. I can add a bit of verb on the guitar although I do like the direct sound of it.

Please help a newb out :P
 
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Do you have a decent mic & guitar amp? If so, I'd really step back and work on micing the amp instead of going direct. I was direct only for years (even for live), and got back into tube amps. I was so stoked by the energy of that amp live that I just had to learn to record it.

I'll admit, that of all the sounds, the one you're working with challenged me the most--the thick heavy, in your face rhythm. I got cleans, and blues distortions and even hi-gain leads in short order. But big ballsy rhythms were tough for me.

Here's what I learned (abbreviated):

  • Play with mic placement -- lots!
  • Use less gain than you think you need, really.
  • Use less bass than you think you need, really. (That's what a bass guitar is for).
  • Track twice or even 4 times. Don't duplicate the track--but play & record it 2 or 4 times. Do it nice and tight, send one left and one right (or fill in the stereo field some if you did 4). That makes a wall of sound.
  • Got two guitars? Two amps? Two mics? Try switching 'em for the other takes. I like a strat on one and a semi-hollow on the other sometimes. Even different amp setting for the different takes can add to the thickness.

If this seems like a lot of work when it's already so easy to DI--trust me it's worth it. You'll lose that artificial sizzle, and replace it with serious energy. And no one will mistake your guitar tracks for MIDI anymore. :)
 
I can't use microphones because I have to record silently (room mates), I was thinking about getting a good iso cab but the cost is to much for me.

As for double tracking:

I have three performances recorded and have them EQ slightly differently they are panned 100Left/Center/100Rright to maximize the stereo field, and gain for each one is at 50% on a high gain amp.

I was thinking about recording a forth performance and panning two 100% L-R and the other two 80% L-R, perhaps set the gain at 25%-35%?

I am not to worried about guitar tracks being mistaken for midi, however you have a pretty good ear and were able to detect that they were DI's so I will have to work on that, as I said perhaps with some reverb.
 
You might want to post this in the MP3 Clinic. you might get more responses.

I haven't had a chance to DL yet (at work), but I'll try to later.

I thought Strat's list of points was good, especially the first two. Moving a mic from one position to another (even 1/2 inch) can change the entire ballgame. Using less gain than you might think at the amp generally gives you a better recorded sound. Too much gain fizzes it out.

Not as sure about the "use less bass than you'd think" one though... I've found it's pretty easy to roll off lows of a distorted electric guitar so that it and the bass compliment each other well. I'd say that a "little too much" is better than "not quite enough". But yeah his point about the low end being handled primarily by the bass is a good one.
 
Oh one more thing I forgot...

What are all those MB comps and EQ's doing in your chain (assuming you're using them all)? Everything in your chain should have a purpose - and you should know what that purpose is. If it's not serving a purpose, it shouldn't be there. I can't imagine a need for all that stuff at once (again, assuming you're using all of it).
 
TripleM said:
You might want to post this in the MP3 Clinic. you might get more responses.

I haven't had a chance to DL yet (at work), but I'll try to later.

I thought Strat's list of points was good, especially the first two. Moving a mic from one position to another (even 1/2 inch) can change the entire ballgame. Using less gain than you might think at the amp generally gives you a better recorded sound. Too much gain fizzes it out.

Not as sure about the "use less bass than you'd think" one though... I've found it's pretty easy to roll off lows of a distorted electric guitar so that it and the bass compliment each other well. I'd say that a "little too much" is better than "not quite enough". But yeah his point about the low end being handled primarily by the bass is a good one.
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Good point. With gain, once it's recorded it's in there. But with the low end you can still record it and roll it off via EQ to fit in with the bass.

I just know I spent so many years jamming with my guitar and amp in my bedroom and I loved this big thick scooped sound. Well that's because there were no other instruments. When I started writing and recording with multiple instruments (esp. bass) I had to learn to let each instrument fill it's spot--and not try to make the guitar fill the whole spectrum.
 
WeeWoo said:
I can't use microphones because I have to record silently (room mates), I was thinking about getting a good iso cab but the cost is to much for me.

As for double tracking:

I have three performances recorded and have them EQ slightly differently they are panned 100Left/Center/100Rright to maximize the stereo field, and gain for each one is at 50% on a high gain amp.

I was thinking about recording a forth performance and panning two 100% L-R and the other two 80% L-R, perhaps set the gain at 25%-35%?

I am not to worried about guitar tracks being mistaken for midi, however you have a pretty good ear and were able to detect that they were DI's so I will have to work on that, as I said perhaps with some reverb.
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Well like I said, I was in your situation (using DI for guitars) for a long time. Knowing that you're stuck there for a while, there are things you can do to make it work as well.

I've got some clips from the last major piece I did with DI guitars that might be interesting to you. I'll try to remember to post them tonight. If you don't see anything--shoot me a PM and remind me.

In the meantime, what's your DI device? And consider TripleM's advice regarding all the processing in your chain. Distorted guitar is already naturally compressed--it's one of the last things I'd add any compression to, even MBC. And certainly not while tracking--only after the fact if I really thought it needed help (Then I might just re-track!).

Try just working with the sound of the guitar and the amp (simulation) without any EQ or Comp. You've gotta get back to basics to really nail your sound.
 
I edited my previous post to show the purpose of each component, now that I had a chance to map everything out I can see I have some things placed haphazardly.

Guitar and bass are shelved EQ wise, but the drums are totally flat I don't really know what area of the sound spectrum they occupy.

Thanks for the MP3 clininc suggestion, I am going to make the same post there of admin want to close this thread.

Distorted guitar is already naturally compressed--it's one of the last things I'd add any compression to, even MBC. And certainly not while tracking--only after the fact if I really thought it needed help (Then I might just re-track!).

Try just working with the sound of the guitar and the amp (simulation) without any EQ or Comp. You've gotta get back to basics to really nail your sound.
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I think you are defiantly right about this I will have to work with my source tone.
 
i can't get past the fact that it sounds like MIDI distorted guitar.

blaaah. i'm listening on some bose cans, too. and sonys.
 
jndietz said:
i can't get past the fact that it sounds like MIDI distorted guitar.

blaaah. i'm listening on some bose cans, too. and sonys.
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It's probably not your ears. It's very compressed--that plus the sizzle could easily be confused for midi.
 
Is there any way you could enable downloading? I'll try to DL it and comment in the Clinic tomorrow.

I read your reasons for the things in your recording chain. Those are all desirable traits in guitar tone. I'd recommend that you try to do all of that with mic placement and adjusting tone on the amp and guitar. It takes A LOT of practice to do it that way. But in the end you'll get a better job done.

Compare your tone with pro mixes that have guitars that you like. Do that A LOT. Pay real close attention to why their's sounds so good and why your's is different.
 
WeeWoo said:
4. Channel EQ - Add subtle fatness and scoop
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There's your probable problem right there, I'd bet. The ol' death scoop giving you nothing but bottom and crispiness, but no actual substance for your DAW to grab on to and mix.

G.
 
Thanks for all the tips guys, I am actually getting different and useful advice from both threads, one specific to guitar tone and the other more specific to mix so I'd like to keep this thread open.

Gear wise I am using Toneport GX and Guitar Rig 3 - while not really a DI, it suffers from the same "direct" sound if you don't work with cab and mic placement.

I updated the mp3 with Version 2 with some reworked cabs and mic placement, I think it sounds slightly better.

I am also working on moving the comps and limiters around, I plan on making at least a couple more changes:

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6642320
 
WeeWoo--

Here are the clips I mentioned earlier. Not exactly the same sound you're going for, but it is all direct. They're both from the same unfinished opus magnus, the first one's an intro, the second one's a mid section breakdown. Just be patient with the neo-classical crap and you'll hear some thick guitars. (On the second one, hang in there--the heavy guitars come in at the end. They're a decent example of letting the bass cover the bottom end to build the thick sound):

The Intro -

The Mid -


BTW--no compression on any of the individual guitar tracks. Just some MBC & limiting (fairly mild in each case) on the master buss.
 
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