peopleperson
I'm so sorry.
Suggestions? It's generally rock music I'm dealing with.
Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
PP,
Distinction in the low end requires a proper monitoring environment so you can hear what you're doing while mixing and making EQ adjustments. This means reasonable speakers and bass traps / acoustic treatment. Without both of those you're just guessing.
--Ethan
Distinction in the low end requires a proper monitoring environment so you can hear what you're doing while mixing and making EQ adjustments. This means reasonable speakers and bass traps / acoustic treatment. Without both of those you're just guessing.
--Ethan
E
EleKtriKaz
Home (w)Rec'r
I've learned that, along with what Ethan said, mastering can really tighten up the bass. Using a really nice eq (one with no phase distortion) in conjunction with good monitors can help you carve out a nice space for the low end.
M
mixsit
Well-known member
Speaking of the sources- In the frequency domain, trim the flab. In the time/arrangement domain, pick who owns what, how much, and when (or how long).
For an example sometimes the kick does relatively mid-range punches into big rolling bass tones, other times the rolls reverse. Or somewhere in between, but maybe less likely both doing big and fat at the same time.
Another one. 'Huge and powerful' can be implied and/or done sparingly and be very effective -style permitting. (This is not the style du jour, but a good example of where the Dead/Lesh were a refreshing contrast to a typical drowning low end. (Ranting again...
Wayne
For an example sometimes the kick does relatively mid-range punches into big rolling bass tones, other times the rolls reverse. Or somewhere in between, but maybe less likely both doing big and fat at the same time.
Another one. 'Huge and powerful' can be implied and/or done sparingly and be very effective -style permitting. (This is not the style du jour, but a good example of where the Dead/Lesh were a refreshing contrast to a typical drowning low end. (Ranting again...
Wayne
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
People,
Ethan's right that room treatment will affect your ability to put a fine point on low end engineering. But like the carpenter who holds a hammer tends to see every problem as a nail, Ethan is carrying a product called "room treatment" that he is selling and tends to see every question on this forum as a potential customer for his product. While he is a knowledgeable guy with many good things to say, before you dive into your checkbook of dismay and wonder a few weeks later why installing bass traps in your dorm room have not helped you with your actual engineering knowledge and technique, let's cover some information that could actually help you without having to sell you anything...
In general, a critical frequency range for "low-end" in somewhere in the 100Hz to 250Hz range (these and all following numbers are not set in stone, just general guideposts.) In general, the lower half of that range is "punchier but boney" sounding and the upper half is "meatier but muddier" sounding. Sometimes "distinction" in the bass region can mean shifting energy to the lower half of that scale to increase "punch" and reduce "mud". Again, just a very general rule.
Sometimes "distinction" might mean keeping, for example, the kick drum and the electric bass "distinct" where they're not muddying or stepping on each other. Again, using the frequency range guidelines above, slightly shifting the energy balance in those frequency ranges for the two instruments; maybe the kick is a bit more pronoinced at 130Hz whereas the bass predominates at 170Hz. These are just example numbers, your numbers may vary, but they (I hope) illustrate the point.
In addition, distinction between instruments can be made by shifts in location and time. If you have both kick and bass running right town the center of your stereo spread, seperating them by a few small degrees left and right (say, +5 and -5) and/or lagging one just behind the other by a few milliseconds can pull them apart like a referee in a boxing ring.
And, finally, sometimes "diistinction" in the low end is actually made on the high end. Low end instuments like drums and bass can often be made quite distinct by accentuating the "attack" side of the sound (the initial percussive spike caused by hitting the drum skin or plucking the guitar string, etc.) Depending on the instrument, the essential frequency for the attack can reside (approximately) anywhere in the 2.5kHz to 5kHz range. Sweep that range with your parametric set to narrow Q to find the key resonant frequency of the attack sound and boot that 2 or 3 dB to add definition to the otherwise bass sound.
A final note on all of this. When using the EQ, try to stick with a quality parametric or paragraphic for your EQing needs (hardware or plugin, as long as it's good quality), keep your EQ boost or cut to a couple of dBs at most, and try cutting unwanted frequencies before you try boosting wanted ones, and you'll wind up with a much more natural result.
HTH,
G.
Ethan's right that room treatment will affect your ability to put a fine point on low end engineering. But like the carpenter who holds a hammer tends to see every problem as a nail, Ethan is carrying a product called "room treatment" that he is selling and tends to see every question on this forum as a potential customer for his product. While he is a knowledgeable guy with many good things to say, before you dive into your checkbook of dismay and wonder a few weeks later why installing bass traps in your dorm room have not helped you with your actual engineering knowledge and technique, let's cover some information that could actually help you without having to sell you anything...
In general, a critical frequency range for "low-end" in somewhere in the 100Hz to 250Hz range (these and all following numbers are not set in stone, just general guideposts.) In general, the lower half of that range is "punchier but boney" sounding and the upper half is "meatier but muddier" sounding. Sometimes "distinction" in the bass region can mean shifting energy to the lower half of that scale to increase "punch" and reduce "mud". Again, just a very general rule.
Sometimes "distinction" might mean keeping, for example, the kick drum and the electric bass "distinct" where they're not muddying or stepping on each other. Again, using the frequency range guidelines above, slightly shifting the energy balance in those frequency ranges for the two instruments; maybe the kick is a bit more pronoinced at 130Hz whereas the bass predominates at 170Hz. These are just example numbers, your numbers may vary, but they (I hope) illustrate the point.
In addition, distinction between instruments can be made by shifts in location and time. If you have both kick and bass running right town the center of your stereo spread, seperating them by a few small degrees left and right (say, +5 and -5) and/or lagging one just behind the other by a few milliseconds can pull them apart like a referee in a boxing ring.
And, finally, sometimes "diistinction" in the low end is actually made on the high end. Low end instuments like drums and bass can often be made quite distinct by accentuating the "attack" side of the sound (the initial percussive spike caused by hitting the drum skin or plucking the guitar string, etc.) Depending on the instrument, the essential frequency for the attack can reside (approximately) anywhere in the 2.5kHz to 5kHz range. Sweep that range with your parametric set to narrow Q to find the key resonant frequency of the attack sound and boot that 2 or 3 dB to add definition to the otherwise bass sound.
A final note on all of this. When using the EQ, try to stick with a quality parametric or paragraphic for your EQing needs (hardware or plugin, as long as it's good quality), keep your EQ boost or cut to a couple of dBs at most, and try cutting unwanted frequencies before you try boosting wanted ones, and you'll wind up with a much more natural result.
HTH,
G.
peopleperson
I'm so sorry.
Thanks to all for taking the time to respond. Right now, Im using the Tapco S8 monitors. They are known for having healthy low end, but admittedly, my room could probably use some treatment. As far as the actual mixing, I think I could stand to work more on the bass itself, especially in relation to the kick. I usually try to roll off guitars and vocals in that range, but the low end is still challenging to me. The fact that a lot of mixes I do will sound too "woofy" in other physical spaces tells me again, that my room is probably in need of some tweaking. Question...I know there's no set rule for this, but does anyone have any personal set rules at all as far as whether the kick or the bass should reside in a lower frequency? The kick is extremely important to me as a listener, but I'm realizing that a lot of recordings I encounter that have kicks that I like, actually have the bass occupying a lower space...frequency-wise that is.
Oh, and Southside's suggestion of pulling tracks ever so slightly out of time is great. I'll definately try that. I've done it with doubled guitars and vocals, but it seemed to just add to phase problems. Seems like it wouldn't be as problematic if it was say the kick you were doing it to.
Oh, and Southside's suggestion of pulling tracks ever so slightly out of time is great. I'll definately try that. I've done it with doubled guitars and vocals, but it seemed to just add to phase problems. Seems like it wouldn't be as problematic if it was say the kick you were doing it to.
ecktronic
Mixing and Mastering.
What i do is not go oeverboard on the lo end at mix down so i can then get more control over it at mastering by carefull compression of the lo end along with boosting if necesery.
Hi pass filters are a good way of controlling lo end at mix stage. But as was said before if the acoustics arent just right then you will be guesing, until you get used to the room and setup youa re using. prob the hardest part of mixing in my view
Hi pass filters are a good way of controlling lo end at mix stage. But as was said before if the acoustics arent just right then you will be guesing, until you get used to the room and setup youa re using. prob the hardest part of mixing in my view
K
kylen
New member
I've got tons of ref material where it goes both ways too, or both seemingly on top of each other - some nice sounding choices for you on the bottom end I think. If you can hear them - that was Ethans point.peopleperson said:
treymonfauntre
Magic Bag Of Sounds
SouthSIDE Glen said:
that was such an eloquent way of saying "this dude sells acoustic treatment, of course hes gonna say thats the problem to everything"
and you know what? i've noticed that there have been a huge increase in responses to threads that say that. i always took it with a grain of salt since i'm not doing any surgical EQing but now i'm starting to wonder if its just acoustic treatment salespeople flooding the forum...
K
kylen
New member
Ethans been here since 2002 - I don't know if he's the salespeople you think are flooding the forum or not. I've talked to him on other forums and his web sites and articles have been around for a long time.treymonfauntre said:
Acoustics is half of the monitor/room combination so it can't be left out. Neither can good sounding monitors, bass is some of the trickiest stuff to manage (besides all the other tricky stuff) so it's fair to discuss the acoustic sourroundings. Just like it's fair to discuss professional mastering, when someone brings it up here at homerecording dot com usually that gets brought up too. It's fair to bring a pro in when a pro is wanted or needed - there's lots of 'em hanging around here like you mentioned.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Look, a guy's gotta make a living, and as I've said, based upon his posts, Ethan is a pretty knowledgable guy with a lot of good things to say. I really don't want to jump on him personally, honestly. And like any good engineer I understand completly the importance of room acoustics and how the room itself is at one level holistically inseperable from the monitors; they are an interacting system.
As great as a well-tuned room is - and it is extremely great, I agree - it is also extremely possible for an engineer with the "skillz" to make a great mix in an untuned room; people do it all the time. It is close to impossible for someone with no or bad "skillz" to make a great mix, even in a theoretically perfectly tuned room. Can anyone tell me which should therefore have the priority?
So, when someone sincerely asks for advice on how to improve the sound of his recordings, an immediate response that without room treatments, he is only "just guessing" on if he is improving his mixes or not is misguiding in a way that borders on insurance sales tactics. It implies that he has to have the tuned room before he has to know what to do with his mixes. I'm sorry, that's just a bunch of smoke, on par with saying that someone's got to have Apogee converters going into an SSL console before he can make a decent recording. And when the person blowing the smoke has a monetarily-biased interest in blowing that smoke, I feel a bit compelled to point that potential conflict of interest out.
G.
As great as a well-tuned room is - and it is extremely great, I agree - it is also extremely possible for an engineer with the "skillz" to make a great mix in an untuned room; people do it all the time. It is close to impossible for someone with no or bad "skillz" to make a great mix, even in a theoretically perfectly tuned room. Can anyone tell me which should therefore have the priority?
So, when someone sincerely asks for advice on how to improve the sound of his recordings, an immediate response that without room treatments, he is only "just guessing" on if he is improving his mixes or not is misguiding in a way that borders on insurance sales tactics. It implies that he has to have the tuned room before he has to know what to do with his mixes. I'm sorry, that's just a bunch of smoke, on par with saying that someone's got to have Apogee converters going into an SSL console before he can make a decent recording. And when the person blowing the smoke has a monetarily-biased interest in blowing that smoke, I feel a bit compelled to point that potential conflict of interest out.
G.
K
kylen
New member
I believe this also...good point!SouthSIDE Glen said:
I've never heard Tapco S8s, peopleperson, so I don't know if they put out a good bass and low-mid balance to begin with regardless of the room. But if your reference material (in a similiar key) sounds good and your mixes don't then that might be a fair test. But you said your mixes sound "woofy" in other physical spaces - that's the classic sign that maybe you can't hear something in your own space. Monitors, monitoring position, monitoring level, or room. What else?
For me, generally, if I can hear it properly I can at least try and tweak it (or know it needs to be re-recorded). Otherwise it's many trips to the car...I'm not saying I have the perfect room either - I get up walk around move my head around - use headphones - anything to get a different view of the sound for the full picture. Then I go to the truck anyway...
C
chessrock
Banned
If Ethan were only out to make a buck, then I'd think it would be pretty counter-productive to post all that DIY stuff.
His method of business promotion is one of the classiest I've seen anywhere: "I'll show you how to save money and do it yourself ... but if you'd rather purchase the stuff from a reputable company, give us a call."
His method of business promotion is one of the classiest I've seen anywhere: "I'll show you how to save money and do it yourself ... but if you'd rather purchase the stuff from a reputable company, give us a call."
Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
Guys,
Chess wrote:
> If Ethan were only out to make a buck, then I'd think it would be pretty counter-productive to post all that DIY stuff. <
Yes, I believe so strongly in the importance of room acoustics that I'd rather see people build their own, or buy from a competitor, than go without. Glen is correct that I see things in terms of acoustics problems more than most people do. However, I'm certain that I'm right.
Seriously, it's not that acoustics are more important than anything else. But it's by far the most overlooked aspect of personal studios. Having good acoustic treatment when mixing is at least as important as what loudspeakers you use, and it's far more important than what microphone or preamp or compressor plug-in, DAW program, etc. Especially in the ever-smaller rooms people are using these days. When I see a post like the first in this thread, about problems getting low end distinction, to me it screams "I need bass traps but don't realize it yet."
Understand that I've been spreading the word about the importance of acoustic treatment since long before the Internet was around. I've only been in the biz for a little more than two years.
So allow me to apologize for what may seem like shameless self-promotion. I assure you my intent is honorable.
--Ethan
Chess wrote:
> If Ethan were only out to make a buck, then I'd think it would be pretty counter-productive to post all that DIY stuff. <
Yes, I believe so strongly in the importance of room acoustics that I'd rather see people build their own, or buy from a competitor, than go without. Glen is correct that I see things in terms of acoustics problems more than most people do. However, I'm certain that I'm right.
Seriously, it's not that acoustics are more important than anything else. But it's by far the most overlooked aspect of personal studios. Having good acoustic treatment when mixing is at least as important as what loudspeakers you use, and it's far more important than what microphone or preamp or compressor plug-in, DAW program, etc. Especially in the ever-smaller rooms people are using these days. When I see a post like the first in this thread, about problems getting low end distinction, to me it screams "I need bass traps but don't realize it yet."
Understand that I've been spreading the word about the importance of acoustic treatment since long before the Internet was around. I've only been in the biz for a little more than two years.
So allow me to apologize for what may seem like shameless self-promotion. I assure you my intent is honorable.
--Ethan
apl
Stand Up Comity
I don't work for Ethan or have anything to gain by pointing to his sites. I am professionally involved in a very closely related field, and what Ethan says about acoustics is dead on. He does a great job of explaining things in non-technical terms. So my standard response to any question involving room acoustics is:
Read www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html and vist www.realtraps.com
Read www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html and vist www.realtraps.com
Middleman
Professional Amateur
Anybody mixing in a bedroom at home needs acoustic treatment to get the best image and depth out of their speakers. Much as I dislike being sold to, Ethan's time and effort over the years has been focused on small room acoustics and his information is correct.
I have read a lot of books on room acoustics that Ethan and others have recommended and these sources come to the same conclusion; below a certain room size, sound works against you. Therefore, you should do some level of bass trapping and midrange control to compensate.
I have read a lot of books on room acoustics that Ethan and others have recommended and these sources come to the same conclusion; below a certain room size, sound works against you. Therefore, you should do some level of bass trapping and midrange control to compensate.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Ethan, again, I really didn't mean my comments to sound as disparaging as they may have.Ethan Winer said:
To extend my earlier metaphor to include me and to be more to the point, "You are in the room treatment business and tend to see most problems as acoustical. I am in the engineering business and tend to see most problems as technique." Am I more right that you are, or vice versa? Of couse not!
When I saw that same post as you did, it screamed to me also; but what I heard was, "How can my make my low-end mixes sound better?" That is how, because of our perspectives, we honestly differ.
Can acoustical treatment help? Absolutely. Will acoustical treatment help if someone doesn't know *how* to make his low-end mixes sound better? Not in the least. It is half for that reason that I personally don't automatically think room acoustics right off the bat when I see that kind of post. The other half of the reason is that the biggest problem most rookie engineers have is not their gear (I include room acoustics as part of the "gear"), but the fact that they are inexperienced at using the gear they do have.
Now, if the guy had said, "Hey gang, I've tried this and this and this, threw all I could into getting my low end sounding right, and I got good monitors and equipment that from the quality of my post you can tell I know how to use well, but when I play it back on other systems the low end just doesn't translate right", then I'd start thinking about how well his monitors and his room couple together to give him a good or bad response in his mixing room.
But, for me, anyway, replying to a post that says a guy wants to know how to get something to sound better by saying that he can only guess at getting a good sound unless he tunes his room first is, at best, mis-prioritizing, and at worst, creating a premature need.
Again Ethan, I've read many of your posts. You are a smart guy from whom I have learned a lot already, and you have helped a lot of other people greatly with your contributions here, in many of which you did not directly refer to your own products or company web pages. I really did not want to disparage you personally. It's just that your response to the opening post of this thread so blindsided me as coming way too quickly and definitively in the triage that I got a bit skeptical on motivation. I probably went a little over the top in trying to compesate for that skepticism. If I singed your toes at all by doing that, I apologize publicly for that.
Humbly,
G.
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K
kylen
New member
Here's a coupla possible ideas:peopleperson said:
1. The S8's have a bass eq where you can pump it up +2/+4 db. Turn up the bass on the monitors and see if that fixes the "woofy" mixes. This may make you lower the bass range (both kick & bass guitar, or one or the other) on your mixes since the bass should be louder now, or hyped, compared to the rest of the freq spectrum.
2. Do 3 new mixes of the same song - one without the bass guitar but with kick, one without the kick but with bass guitar, one with bass guitar and kick. Is any mix woofy ? That might tell you something about which instrument is doing the woofing, or is it just anything in the bass region.
Fun discussion everyone! What do you think peopleperson?
Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
Glen,
> I really didn't mean my comments to sound as disparaging as they may have. <
Not at all. I freely acknowledge that I "push the envelope" constantly on the importance of room treatment. Sometimes I wish I weren't in the business so I could feel free to push it even harder.
I also agree with everything you said. "Technique" is paramount. With technique you can get a decent mix even in a crappy room, but without it you're doomed to fail even in a perfect room.
--Ethan
> I really didn't mean my comments to sound as disparaging as they may have. <
Not at all. I freely acknowledge that I "push the envelope" constantly on the importance of room treatment. Sometimes I wish I weren't in the business so I could feel free to push it even harder.
I also agree with everything you said. "Technique" is paramount. With technique you can get a decent mix even in a crappy room, but without it you're doomed to fail even in a perfect room.
--Ethan
peopleperson
I'm so sorry.
Again, thanks for all the responses. As far as the room treatment discussion, I kind of lean towards Glen's responses. Yes, the room is an enourmous factor, but I'm trying to learn as much as I can with as little equiptment as I have even in the crappy room I have. When I take mixes elsewhere, I can easily hear what portions of frequency that I'm not hearing as much. The low boost on my monitors will help I'm sure.
As a side note, I realized that the mixes I was having trouble with were all done with one particular drum kit. It's an excellent sounding kit all the way around, but the front head doesn't have a hole, and I think that contributed greatly to not having enough attack, and the kick was eating up a lot of the bass guitar. I may try that kick from the other side next time because the other mixes I've done with other drum kits worked out really good.
In the meantime....Drumagog.
As a side note, I realized that the mixes I was having trouble with were all done with one particular drum kit. It's an excellent sounding kit all the way around, but the front head doesn't have a hole, and I think that contributed greatly to not having enough attack, and the kick was eating up a lot of the bass guitar. I may try that kick from the other side next time because the other mixes I've done with other drum kits worked out really good.
In the meantime....Drumagog.