Direct Recording - Guitar pedalboard to Zoom H6

E

EarthNavigator

New member
Hello everyone, this is my first post here!

I am a guitar player and I play ambient, drone, noisescape.
I do soundtracks for video, art installations and also just for me.
So my aim is to remove my amps/microphones (the sound of the room) from my recordings and be able to work silently so as not to be a disturbance to anyone else in the building. I want to record onto my Zoom H6.... So normally I would come out stereo from my looper at the end of my pedal chain to two amps with SM57's....

So my question is, what equipment do I need between my looper outputs and the Zoom H6 inputs which are combi/TRS type....I have tried going straight in to the Zoom but the results were disappointing. Should I buy a desk and stereo DI? What are my options? Thanks!
 
EarthNavigator said:
Hello everyone, this is my first post here!

I am a guitar player and I play ambient, drone, noisescape.
I do soundtracks for video, art installations and also just for me.
So my aim is to remove my amps/microphones (the sound of the room) from my recordings and be able to work silently so as not to be a disturbance to anyone else in the building. I want to record onto my Zoom H6.... So normally I would come out stereo from my looper at the end of my pedal chain to two amps with SM57's....

So my question is, what equipment do I need between my looper outputs and the Zoom H6 inputs which are combi/TRS type....I have tried going straight in to the Zoom but the results were disappointing. Should I buy a desk and stereo DI? What are my options? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Normally I would suggest an Audio Interface but you already have a quite decent one in the H6 (gets a good rep in sound on sound) so, IMO you need a small mixer.
This will take the unbalanced looper feeds and allow you to optimize their level, EQ them a bit if wanted and feed a balanced signal to the Zoom.

You would also get true, zero latency monitoring from the mixer's headphone jack but also you would be able to feed the H6 return signal back into other track inputs or the CD/Tape RCAs.

Mixers start below $50 and go on to the SSl Six!

Dave.
 
Not sure what was "disappointing" about the recording. Maybe a little more info on that?

If you are going to copy the tracks into a DAW and mix there, I'd pick up a pair of passive DIs. Then, try some amp sim VSTs and do the EQ/compression stuff in the DAW.
 
Hey thanks for the suggestion!
Would I need a DI box before the mixer?
And would you mind expanding on your suggestion of feeding back in to the mixer from the Zoom?

Scott
 
keith.rogers said:
Not sure what was "disappointing" about the recording. Maybe a little more info on that?

If you are going to copy the tracks into a DAW and mix there, I'd pick up a pair of passive DIs. Then, try some amp sim VSTs and do the EQ/compression stuff in the DAW.
Click to expand...


the issue with going straight to the Zoom is the drive/distortion tones....the clean modulated signals are not to bad but overdriven tones sound very inauthentic.
 
EarthNavigator said:
Hey thanks for the suggestion!
Would I need a DI box before the mixer?
And would you mind expanding on your suggestion of feeding back in to the mixer from the Zoom?

Scott
Click to expand...

There is a danger here Scott of us confusing you! Keith and I see the solution two different ways I think?

No DI in my scenario because the looper will be the high impedance buffer and will have reasonably low impedance feeds to the mixer, easily capable of driving a mixers line inputs which should be 10K Ohms or higher.

The mixer can then sort out suitable levels to drive the Zoom's line inputs. Regarding compression you can get mixers with it on the Main Outs or even on every channel.
Mixers also have AUX and FX sends and returns where you can slot in any FX pedals you might have.

I suggest you look at a few from (in no particular order) Behringer, Yamaha, Allen&Heath, Soundcraft, Mackie,Tascam and others. Try to download their 'Signal Block Diagrams' gives much insight about what they do.

Note, you don't need the USB recording facility but SO many mixers bolt it on these days you might have to have it. Don't have to use it and it doesn't really add to the price.

Dave.
 
keith.rogers said:
Not sure what was "disappointing" about the recording. Maybe a little more info on that?

If you are going to copy the tracks into a DAW and mix there, I'd pick up a pair of passive DIs. Then, try some amp sim VSTs and do the EQ/compression stuff in the DAW.
Click to expand...


the issue with going straight to the Zoom is the drive/distortion tones....the clean modulated signals are not to bad but overdrives tones sound very inauthentic. I am a bit confused about the DI question...the pickups on all of my guitars are passive so does that mean that active DI's would better suit me?
 
EarthNavigator said:
the issue with going straight to the Zoom is the drive/distortion tones....the clean modulated signals are not to bad but overdrives tones sound very inauthentic. I am a bit confused about the DI question...the pickups on all of my guitars are passive so does that mean that active DI's would better suit me?
Click to expand...

If I may? The only need for a DI as a rule is to present a high impedance to the passive guitar and deliver a low impedance, balanced output at microphone level.

The looper does the former and in normal circumstances deliver a useful signal to a recording device, be it a hand-held or AI. This situation does not seem to obtain in this case, you are unhappy with the results. That is why I suggested a mixer. That can take the looper's outputs and adjust them, hotter or colder as the case may be, to feed the Zoom.

Keith is suggesting I think that you feed the two looper outputs to the MIC inputs of the Zoom via DIs?
The high Z function is not then needed but the balanced, mic level shift is.

Personally, if the Zoom does not give the sounds you want fed with line signals I cannot see why the mic inputs would change that? (you would almost certainly be going through the same mic amps)
The mixer scenario gives you control of the level INTO the Zoom plus some EQ and possibly other FX.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
There is a danger here Scott of us confusing you! Keith and I see the solution two different ways I think?

No DI in my scenario because the looper will be the high impedance buffer and will have reasonably low impedance feeds to the mixer, easily capable of driving a mixers line inputs which should be 10K Ohms or higher.

The mixer can then sort out suitable levels to drive the Zoom's line inputs. Regarding compression you can get mixers with it on the Main Outs or even on every channel.
Mixers also have AUX and FX sends and returns where you can slot in any FX pedals you might have.

I suggest you look at a few from (in no particular order) Behringer, Yamaha, Allen&Heath, Soundcraft, Mackie,Tascam and others. Try to download their 'Signal Block Diagrams' gives much insight about what they do.

Note, you don't need the USB recording facility but SO many mixers bolt it on these days you might have to have it. Don't have to use it and it doesn't really add to the price.

Dave.
Click to expand...


....thankyou, yes I have been looking at mixers the last few days. So far I think that what I need is:
Direct outs and inserts on each channel
As many Aux sends as possible

Candidates so far are the Soundcraft FX16II and the Allen & Heath Wz3....out of these two which do you think might suit me better? The EQ on Allen & Heath looks to be superior to the Soundcraft
 
EarthNavigator said:
....thankyou, yes I have been looking at mixers the last few days. So far I think that what I need is:
Direct outs and inserts on each channel
As many Aux sends as possible

Candidates so far are the Soundcraft FX16II and the Allen & Heath Wz3....out of these two which do you think might suit me better? The EQ on Allen & Heath looks to be superior to the Soundcraft
Click to expand...

Unless you have other grand plans for a mixer you don't IMHO need to shop in that price range (but don't let me stop you buying top notch gear!)

For your immediate, posted problem I don't see the need for direct outs? These are really designed to feed a multitrack recording system. You just need two main outputs AFAICS?

I am NOT going to get into the relative merits of those two mixers! Both will have an audio path easily good enough for your purposes and you should base your choice on the facilities on offer.

Dave.
 
Point taken! As you said I only need 2 inputs for my guitar signal.
But that leaves 4 more Zoom inputs to feed from other pieces of equipment, or perhaps from other human collaborators in the silent room with me!
 
Last edited:
If OP is driving a guitar amp with the looper in a pedal chain I assumed its impedance and output was not that different than the guitar itself. It might have a LINE out, in which case there's really no need for anything - just go direct into the 1/4" input on the H6. However, that input is relatively low impedance, I think ~2kΩ IIRC, so I would expect anything intended for a guitar amp input is probably too high. Of course, a LINE out from a mixer should do that, but either way it's just matching impedance that is going to at least insure the signal being recorded is not too far from the one being sent. (I yield to Dave on the actual matching, but it might be good to know what kind of output is being sent from the looper too.)

Now, the difference in distorted tones has probably more to do with the fact that the signal is a bit hot and distorted, expecting/hoping to tickle an amplifier preamp into some pleasing mode. This is not going to happen in solid state mixer, but might with a well designed VST, IMO/IME. Whether a mixer is used or DIs, you really need an "amp" in the chain. Either a VST, or perhaps include one of the fancier modelers or a simple analog amp pedal like the old Tech 21 Character Series or those Joyo clones (which apparently killed Tech 21...). Again IMO/IME.
 
keith.rogers said:
If OP is driving a guitar amp with the looper in a pedal chain I assumed its impedance and output was not that different than the guitar itself. It might have a LINE out, in which case there's really no need for anything - just go direct into the 1/4" input on the H6. However, that input is relatively low impedance, I think ~2kΩ IIRC, so I would expect anything intended for a guitar amp input is probably too high. Of course, a LINE out from a mixer should do that, but either way it's just matching impedance that is going to at least insure the signal being recorded is not too far from the one being sent. (I yield to Dave on the actual matching, but it might be good to know what kind of output is being sent from the looper too.)

Now, the difference in distorted tones has probably more to do with the fact that the signal is a bit hot and distorted, expecting/hoping to tickle an amplifier preamp into some pleasing mode. This is not going to happen in solid state mixer, but might with a well designed VST, IMO/IME. Whether a mixer is used or DIs, you really need an "amp" in the chain. Either a VST, or perhaps include one of the fancier modelers or a simple analog amp pedal like the old Tech 21 Character Series or those Joyo clones (which apparently killed Tech 21...). Again IMO/IME.
Click to expand...


...thankyou, yes 1 Joyo American Sound placed after my overdrives and before my signal goes stereo into my modulation,delay and reverb...out to X2 looper then 2 Behringer GI-100 DI's with cab simulator and finally the H6
I do thnk that this would solve the stated problem with little outlay....however I do like the thought of introducing a desk to the room as it is a hub for routing signals from other devices, players etc.
 
EarthNavigator said:
...thankyou, yes 1 Joyo American Sound placed after my overdrives and before my signal goes stereo into my modulation,delay and reverb...out to X2 looper then 2 Behringer GI-100 DI's with cab simulator and finally the H6
I do thnk that this would solve the stated problem with little outlay....however I do like the thought of introducing a desk to the room as it is a hub for routing signals from other devices, players etc.
Click to expand...

Where did all that other ***t come from? Has this old valve tech drifted off and missed something?

I thought the path was guitar>looper>line in on the H6? And it was this setup that was giving the poor results?

Now, the looper, because it must be an active device, will have the right sort of input and output impedances you need but the whole guitar/looper combination might be close to unity gain and thus not have enough drive for the HS line inputs? This is where I believe a mixer will help.

The fact that you have come to the conclusion that a mixer will be useful anyway means you have nothing to lose in getting one.

I am however doubtful that you will get a satisfactory overdrive tone sans an amp. I have read many,many threads where people have tried to do this and few if any that have reported success.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Where did all that other ***t come from? Has this old valve tech drifted off and missed something?

I thought the path was guitar>looper>line in on the H6? And it was this setup that was giving the poor results?

Now, the looper, because it must be an active device, will have the right sort of input and output impedances you need but the whole guitar/looper combination might be close to unity gain and thus not have enough drive for the HS line inputs? This is where I believe a mixer will help.

The fact that you have come to the conclusion that a mixer will be useful anyway means you have nothing to lose in getting one.

I am however doubtful that you will get a satisfactory overdrive tone sans an amp. I have read many,many threads where people have tried to do this and few if any that have reported success.

Dave.
Click to expand...


...lol no you haven't drifted off! And I am trying not to drift away myself from the stated goal of this discussion! But in actuality there are two parallel threads of thought going on in my mind...
1st Improving the signal quality into the H6...my thinking here is as tho the Zoom is another pedal in the chain..
2nd is my ambitions to create a silent recording room here....so I think purchasing a mixing desk is a solid decision as it makes good sense in any scenario I can dream up!

I realise that both of these appear to have the same goal, but I am ultimately seeking to create a nice silent recording room for me to experiment and grow as a ambient composer, so what little funds there are available I want to spend wisely...
 
Last edited:
EarthNavigator said:
...lol no you haven't drifted off! And I am trying not to drift away myself from the stated goal of this discussion! But in actuality there are two parallel threads of thought going on in my mind...
1st Improving the signal quality into the H6...my thinking here is as tho the Zoom is another pedal in the chain..
2nd is my ambitions to create a silent recording room here....so I think purchasing a mixing desk is a solid decision as it makes good sense in any scenario I can dream up!

I realise that both of these appear to have the same goal, but I am ultimately seeking to create a nice silent recording room for me to experiment and grow as a ambient composer, so what little funds there are available I want to spend wisely...
Click to expand...

Ah! Ok then well my 2 pennoth is to use the Zoom as an interface with a PC and explore the vast range of guitar FX and modelling products now available, many free, some pretty cheap.

The only fly in that ointment is that the Zoom may not have sufficiently low latency for the task but you will only know that by experiment.

That is about the limit of my knowledge, I AM just a tech' not a recording engineer or musician. I used to say when very musical son was home "He plays. I solder and pays".

Dave.
 
I don't see a need for di or mixer, just amp Sims. Assuming the op was getting good results when he was micing amps and the only thing that he changed was removing the amps, he just need to replace the amps with some sims.
 
Farview said:
I don't see a need for di or mixer, just amp Sims. Assuming the op was getting good results when he was micing amps and the only thing that he changed was removing the amps, he just need to replace the amps with some sims.
Click to expand...

Agreed...now but at the top of the thread he was not wanting to use a PC AFAICT? Just get his 'tone' into the Zoom.

Dave.
 
...thanks guys, I really appreciate all of your contributions. I am going to look for a small mixer...perhaps set my sights a little lower than those stated earlier in the thread. Probably something from Mackie as their boards offer great flexibility at the price. Also some kind of cab simulation too. Small steps...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top